intent....again :(

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[polka_dot PUH_JOMMIES]

INTENT.....I know, I know...we've been down this road 10000 times already, (thus the name TKR   - like I could have resisted THAT one   )

Lately, I've have a few situations/goals that have presented themselves to me via unexpected happenings and circumstances.  As it turns out, some of these issues are complicated and need lots of thought, timing and insight and I find myself 'working the details' with great intensity.

    I'm finding that the adage of 'where thought goes, energy follows' to be performing beautifully for these issues because some very difficult issues are seemingly falling into place due to proper groundwork (intent). One situation in particular, a highly unusual life changing one, would, it seems to me, to have much negativity attached with it, yet, even these things seem to be working towards an outcome of my 'intentions'.

     A current observation of the power of intent is this:
One of these issues is highly mental at this point...and frankly, involves 'rights/wrongs' depending on a persons value system. So here is the pondering -

    wrong vs intent ~~say I was wanting extra money and decided that robbing the bank or stealing from another person was the way I saw to get what I wanted.  Do I think robbing a bank is wrong?  Yes, I do.
However, I do all the mental work of creating a plan, a strategy to get me this money.  This is the intent...to get the money.  I pour hours of mental energy into developing these plans...I hone and fine tune until I feel this is going to work...I have covered all the bases and feel confident...but I never put the plan into action. The bank was never robbed nor was any person stolen from.

    In reality, did I rob the bank, commit a wrong...no. I couldn't be arrested for a thing.
    Mentally did I? a big time yes. I could have been arrested for my thoughts  

    So what do we have here??  During all the thinking/planning, my daily life manifested results of my thinking...my intent.  I secretly scanned the internet for bank robbing how to's, I watched TV programs to pick up tips on being a thief, I educated myself in how not to leave follow up clues for the investigators... my heart would pound when thinking of getting caught, I ceased doing certain daily habits so as to make time/room to work on the details, I started buy a new wardrobe as if I already had the money in my possession..(still with me ?   )

    In short, while I didn't actually rob the bank, my intent to do so created a physical expression in my life. I mentally was spending the stolen money to accquire 'things'. I found myself mentally enjoying 'those things'...so, in so many ways, it was AS IF I actually did rob the bank.

Back to right vs wrong...for those of you who agree with me that had the bank been robbed , a  'wrong' would have been committed,   mull this one over....was my original 'intent' as wrong...as if I actually had robbed the bank??  .....that mentally, I was just as 'wrong' as if I had physically robbed the bank?? Because the intent was so strong, so deliberate, so focused, didn't I in effect, rob that bank..??  I'm thinking so...that to have all that I've mentioned envolved with intent, that the bank was as good as robbed...the interior damage/rewards had already been internalized by me as if I had done it.  Like thinking about sucking on a lemon...you don't actually have to suck on the lemon to get your mouth to salivate...and yet, it does.

    I just found this concept interesting to think about.....and wondered what you clever minded astute people would offer as opinions ..

yup...I'm hoping flattery will get me some good thinking posted on this     Post away !!  

[Eric]

PDPJ

So you are asking about, moral intent, right?  Which, I think is a bit seperate from the concept of mental intent.  

In RV terms, I think of intent as the ability to focus on a single idea for an extended period of time.  For example, a target ID.  

As far as moral intent goes, I think of that as a persons intentions in a given action.  Heres a great example of that-

A guy gets a new rifle.  He creeps up to the edge of a cliff by a waterway, and snipes some unsuspecting victim in a boat.  Victim dies.

OR

A guy gets a new rifle, wants to test it out.  Sets up a target on one end of a cliff, bullet ends up hitting some unsuspecting boater, boater dies.

In each case, a gun was fired, a man dies.  In one case the man has a premeditated murder, the other, just extremely dumb.  

To me, moral intent seperates these two events drastically.  Is that the kind of intent you speak of?


In your case, you contemplated robbing the bank (hypothetically, I hope) but didnt do it.  Er, I would say thats fine... I guess.  Compared to your starting some sort of home business to make money?  Way different.  Was, way different.  We all need cash to live on!  Unless you are running some sort of a con, heh heh.

Your example isnt specific enough for me I guess.  Or maybe I am missing what you are saying entirely, my fault.  Maybe we should seperate intent, and intentions, heh.


Eric

[PJ]

Religion speaks to this, in several forms. The only one I can recall off the top of my head is the New Testament, where it is said that if a man in his mind commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, then he has as good as done it, as far as his moral clarity goes; it's considered a sin (going against God or Self, depending on how you wish to interpret that word) either way.

I find that when an energy is acting out in my life, it usually is acting out everywhere, in each different place according to its nature.  

The best way to example this is to imagine a bouquet of fractals, as if they are flowers. Each fractal is slightly different, and tends toward green.  Now say you take a certain math pattern, mostly blue, and drop it into each different fractal 'flower'. You have changed the math a little in each, and you will see the difference in them, they will sprout new growing forms based on their own formula (the root), with the new influence of the addition.  

Since the fractals differ in this bouquet, the end-result is a slightly different fractal pattern/color in every case, even though the energy added (the blue pattern) is the same.  So someone looking on might see a bouquet of different forms and not realize that the same energy is manifesting in all these different ways.

If a person for example is thinking about how to 'unfairly' come by money, that's an energy that will going to act out in a variety of ways in their life: the feeling of lack, of pursuit, and of taking something not rightfully one's own by force or cunning.

For example they might find, when they are in this phase, that they are also trying to find "hacks and shortcuts" to taking more time for themselves (e.g., playing on company time), or for getting more or better recognition personally (small comments that make themselves look better or coworkers look worse), or expecting more coming in from a relationship than they want to put out themselves, that sort of thing.  The energy is one, but usually it'll manifest in each area of their life according to that area's nature.

I expect this is why when someone 'deals with' an issue plaguing them, they tend to see results in every area of their life, not just the problem focused on.

I might add that every human has cycles of 'issues' they deal with, and it's no big deal that at some point a person is dealing with issues of their own integrity or whatever--these are things that all mature adults face and cycle through and hopefully come out better for, throughout their lives.  I mean it's a common tendency to act as if one was born True And Just In The Eyes Of God and never varies, LOL, but seriously, for whom is that true?--we are all constantly dredging up parts of ourselves we want to make better.

As far as RV goes, I'm not sure this is actually an RV topic to be honest.  I mean 'intent' is, but you're not using it in that context here.

Concerning your guy-in-boat example, it is certainly the case that consciously, the fellow had no intent to harm another.  But subconsciously, if psi is real and innate, he knew he would kill the guy by accident and did it anyway.  One cannot accept psi as real and yet still pretend that we are ignorant of the future and of the consequences of our actions.  Feel out how someone feels about that statement and you will know how capable they are of genuinely dealing with psi.

I should add that by these same assumptions, I do not believe birth or death ever happen by accident; it is my opinion that the guy in the boat knew he was going to die and arranged to be in that precise spot at that precise moment because for whatever reason, it was his time.  That does not mean it's ok to harm people because on a psychic level they agreed, ok, that'd be  ridiculous; it does however lend some insight into the fact that every person has a part in their experience.

One exercise I learned long ago to use in finding belief systems could probably be used in this case.  I will give you the example that I had then--what little I remember--in the hopes it will model it for you.

1.  I corresponded online a great deal about psycho-spiritual matters.  I took very seriously a sense of 'responsibility' for what I said and how it might affect people, e.g., I would not expose people to stuff I thought was inappropriate for 'where they seemed to be' development-wise.

2.  In order to believe in this, I had to believe that if I wasn't careful, I could cause harm to somebody.

3.  In order to believe that, I had to believe that someone could be exposed and harmed while having no say in their own reality experience at all.  

4.  I also had to believe that people coming in contact with me, rather than maybe being by choice to be exposed to what I knew or was doing, were there by some meaningless accident.

Both 3 and 4 totally violated what I consciously thought I believed.  Also:

5.  In order to believe that a person could be helpless, in a meaningless personal connection, and victimized even accidentally, it means that I had to believe that for all people, and it always comes down to, I had to believe it for ME.  Fear is *always* self-based.

6.  So what I was really believing in order to 'handle with kid gloves' other people -- what arrogance! -- was that *I* was in danger of getting more than I bargained for and being harmed by it.

So just as the sages of old would say, what we believe about the danger to others is always a mirror of what we believe about ourselves.

When I faced that issue head on and meditated on the result of #6, it went away.  Arrogance is always a manifestation of fear, and good riddance.  

From that time on, I began saying what I honestly thought about everything to anybody, feeling that if it got me in trouble, well, there's always some that don't like you, and at least I was being who I was.  

I didn't shy away from telling people stuff that might conflict with their existing belief systems or religion, feeling that if they had chosen to come into contact with me, perhaps it was because they were ready to consider those points of view--maybe to reject and better hold what they had, maybe the opposite, none of my business which, really.

That doesn't mean that I would be irresponsible, e.g., say something I felt would openly harm a person or the field I was talking about.  But it means that I got over the idea that I was any judge whatever of where someone else was and what they were ready for, and instead I tried to consider everybody an opportunity: to feel out what I felt about things, and to make a unique fractal connection that might someday grow into something of value for me.

Anyway you can see that what seemed an innocent, even altruistic behavior was in fact sponsored by fear at the root.  Sometimes belief systems are difficult to see.  So you can break down what's going on inside you in this kind of way: {A} What is the situation, {B} what situations/relations must be in place in order for that to occur, {C} what implications does that have specifically, and then {D} how do those apply if flipped to indicate those implication for yourself.  You can sometimes be really surprised by the outcome!

PJ

[polka_dot PUH_JOMMIES]

Hi Eric  

So you are asking about, moral intent, right?  Which, I think is a bit seperate from the concept of mental intent.

 and

Maybe we should seperate intent, and intentions, heh.

    okay...your point is noted on moral vs mental - but the bottom line, as I see intent, as far as energy expenditure, focus and the like are still the same. Energy is energy with out labels.....  it's humans that assign the morality good or bad/ right or wrong.....it's the 'usage of the intent' --the intention- the wanted outcome of the intent, that makes it become a moral or mental situtation depending on a personal value system.
Agreed??

....and no, I never did rob the bank....not clever or needy enough  lol    nor do I have the intentions which would evoke the intent    

In RV terms, I think of intent as the ability to focus on a single idea for an extended period of time.  For example, a target ID.

 

As far as moral intent goes, I think of that as a persons intentions in a given action.

    I'm seeing now where I didn't offer a clear application of my musings towards RVing which is why you felt you needed more information...so...

    for the purpose of applying intent to RVing, how do you see a persons value system influencing any RV results?   Say the target is (blind of course) that of looking into a persons personal life...looking for flaws, secrets etc....  In life, not as an RV target, this is something that would be morally against your personal values, therefore, you wouldn't do it...invade someone's privacy like that, but as a blind target, does the morality factor matter??  would your personal code of ethics disallow accurate data?  Let's get back to the bank...as a blind target...what is being looked for are ways of gaining enterance into the bank, for locations of the valuables and so on....if in real life you wouldn't do this, would you be able to RV the information??  

     Does this make it a bit more clear??

However...you raised an interesting point about intent vs intentions....as an aside, what about this. What opinions do you have as far as if the intent was the intention of robbing a bank and even though you didn't actually do it but went through the process as I described in my first posting along with all the physical reactions, on a cellular level, did you rob the bank or not?  

omg....are your eyes as scrambled as mine are after all that??

and if this still isn't clear enough, let me know and I'll muddy the waters a bit more....

pdPJ doing the happy dance without a clue as to why!...  but happy none the less

[polka_dot PUH_JOMMIES]

Excellent PJ!   I knew you would hit the nail with the hammer!  

You picked up on one aspect and Eric another...this is good.

I'd comment more, and will later, but have been having a lot of pc issues lately and now am having problems staying on line...phone company coming tomorrow to check out my lines....

will get back to you on this though...

[waterway]

PJ,

Being honest with folks like you described reminded me of a book I read a few years ago by a guy named Brad Blanton, I think.... it was called "Radical Honesty".   Have you seen it?

[PJ]

No, I haven't.  That's a funny title.  Reminds me of when I was in high school and an old lady at the public library asked me what kind of books I liked best on the paperback racks. "Smut!" I happily replied, then realized by the look on her face that honesty is not always the best policy.  

PJ

[waterway]

Well basically Mr. Blanton explains that unless you are 100% honest, you are an emotionally crippled person living in fear.  Whew... okay, I am paraphrasing.  But he is asking a lot.  

Most people do not react well to complete honesty... especially if you have been quiet about some of your feelings and opinions since the beginning of your relationship.  So warn people .

Its a fascinating read.  I agree with most of what he says, but I don't have the backbone to do it.  

[PJ]

There is a book called 'The Four Agreements' that friends sent me for Christmas a couple years ago, a simplified version of part of Toltec philosophy.  

Though written very simply for the proletariat, it is not insulting, just simple.

It points out that we make agreements with ourselves and culture when we are too young to be doing so with conscious awareness, and gives four 'agreements' that we can choose to make with ourselves now, and act on, on a daily basis.  

The words of the agreements aren't all; you gotta read the implications and explanation he gives for a larger vision of what each means and entails.

So I decided hey, I am already honest with myself and others for the most part--it is usually only occasional politics that interferes with that (and I am often WRONG, but not dishonest)--I figured I would make a conscious effort every day to uphold the Four Agreements.

On my first day I managed to violate all four of them within about an hour of getting out of bed.  It went downhill from there, LOL.

There's just so much stuff that unless you are being really highly aware of what you're doing and then right after, of what you've done and your motives and the subtleties, you just don't see what is really involved.

I like the book and sometimes keep it in my backpack, when I'm spending a lot of time with it like in summer when I'm often taking Ry places, to re-read.  I recommend it.  You can find it in any bookstore or online.

PJ

[waterway]

It sounds like a winner, I will check it out.  

What is the quote "All people are born free, but everywhere they are in chains"?  We learn to live in comfortable lies early on, it takes real will or shocking tragedy to change that.

Blanton says that we have to completely open, and stay with the people we are open with until they have had the chance to be completely open with us.  And we can be wrong, so we need to stay there to be corrected.