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Author Topic: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.  (Read 662 times)

Slorri

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Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« on: February 10, 2018, 09:34:17 AM »
We have observed that the word “blind” is used extensively in remote viewing, but it is not defined. There are also forces working for to prevent the word from being defined.

If a viewer start a session, he can describe how much he knows about the target or the general task, beforehand. If he writes the word “blind”, what does that mean? What does it mean to him, and what does it mean to others?

As it is now, the meaning varies from person to person. And in a specific case it is impossible to know what is the level of information known beforehand.

It ranges from:
1. No information is given to the viewer.
2. No information is given and measures are taken so that the viewer can not even anticipate the target or the context of the task.
3. Any amount of information can be given to the viewer, as long as he is not given what is called “the targeted information”.
4. Variations of the above. Where 1. or 2. is officially claimed but 3. is used.
5. The claim that the word blind is already defined in science and we can’t change that, while not revealing how it is to be adopted to remote viewing.
6. Fill in the blank...

There are probably pros and cons to using a word that is not defined.
What are the dangers and benefits of doing that?

How much information can the viewer have beforehand and still claim he is “blind”?

RVTrainee001

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 01:53:52 PM »
Very true, much fake legitimacy can be gained by claiming "Blind"

In reality, the term blind comes from experimental academic tradition wherein it means that a participant has no idea as to what may be going on in an experiment, removing the influence of expectations. in RV, there is plenty of leakage from taskers past targets for instnace.

Slorri

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 06:09:16 PM »
The benefits of having an undefined word is obvious for those that want to cheat. For those that pride themselves of not missing a target. For managers that want to lead the viewers in a certain direction. And so on.

It is also a golden opportunity for anyone who wants to ruin the reputation of RV.

I sense that as long as we can not agree on the very fundamental condition for the viewer in RV, the whole thing can not even pretend to be scientific.

PJ

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 11:36:01 PM »
I hang out in the areas of online "food" world that tends to have ketogenic, paleo/primal and intermittant fasting involved. Today I was reading this conversation and a buddy of mine observed with humor that while people can argue about there being no "degrees" of "fasted state" -- that 'anything but water is not fasting' -- that still, most people don't have any problem agreeing that there are varying degrees of the "fed" state.

That made me laugh, because I realized it was the same language dilemma as Remote Viewing: we can argue that blind is "utterly," either/or thing; but there are different degrees of "informed."

PJ
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Slorri

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 02:22:56 PM »
There are obviously different degrees of informed, and even on the lower end of the scale we must accept some rudimental information.

We can not expect a RV task haphazardly to fall out of the sky, with us not knowing where it came from, who created it, and when it should be done; And even not knowing if it is a RV task or not. Essentially, in science, blind can mean that we do not even know if we are participating in an experiment or not.

Slorri

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 08:21:32 AM »
We can add another proposition from elsewhere. I'll put that to the end of the open ended list as number 7.

It ranges from:
1. No information is given to the viewer.
2. No information is given and measures are taken so that the viewer can not even anticipate the target or the context of the task.
3. Any amount of information can be given to the viewer, as long as he is not given what is called “the targeted information”.
4. Variations of the above. Where 1. or 2. is officially claimed but 3. is used.
5. The claim that the word blind is already defined in science and we can’t change that, while not revealing how it is to be adopted to remote viewing.
6. Fill in the blank...
7. Viewer is blind when he does not know the cue beforehand. He can only know the target reference number.


PJ

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 10:35:26 AM »
Howdy Slorri,

3. Any amount of information can be given to the viewer, as long as he is not given what is called “the targeted information”.
4. Variations of the above. Where 1. or 2. is officially claimed but 3. is used.
I rather feel like you have put far too much in the basket of #3 on that list, or rather, that this number alone sums up 99.9% of all the viewing done now or ever.

#4 is your reason for reaching out on the point to begin with I expect. This an issue in the layman's field, where people who are disinterested in validly applying the protocol or properly using the RV term abound. You can't change others' behavior by redefining words.

The people who take viewing seriously enough to care about things like blinding protocol will usually be communicative and have integrity about it in the first place. (Whatever it is, it is. Sometimes it's not ideal. So what. Communication is the key, not perfection to begin with.) So it becomes an issue of preaching to the choir, as we say.

5. The claim that the word blind is already defined in science and we can’t change that, while not revealing how it is to be adopted to remote viewing.
OK, that might be a fair critique.

The problem (as in private conversation I know I've said ad-nauseum) is that sometimes, both assessing something, and communicating about it, require at least some degree of "intelligent discretion" and "accurate communication." Starting with the former.

Because the reason for X (blinding protocol) will depend on the reason for Y (why you view, what's done with the data), which means there are tons of variables, and every protocol is a distinct combination of settings as a result.

In the end some of the evaluation for why a viewing team might "allow" something that interferes with blinding might come down to,
"a/ the experience and skill of the viewer" or
"b/ too late, had no choice" or even
"c/ because feeling good about it all, or d/ the method$ getting credit for situation-X with enthusiasm, is more important than the objective validation of the data," or
"e/ because we just don't think it matters or care to think about it too hard at all."

But when the reason is truly C onward, if they chose to communicate about the session later, people are unlikely to recognize or admit the true reasons for the blinding protocol and more likely to conveniently leave out as much info as possible to make things appear 'more blind' than they were. So you don't find out some dude who knows the target is sitting 3 feet across the table until you inquire in detail.

That's bad enough, but add that to no feedback on the target in question and even true believers start rolling their eyes. That isn't RV. It isn't even valid as psi. It could be songwriting or free association for all we know. Neither would be any more or less valid applied to the task.

This is pretty consistent for what, 23 years of public RV now, so I don't see it changing anytime soon. Particularly since -- much like the old unit -- the field suffered such problems it has ended up being led by psychics instead of viewers. (An issue that's more a mindset/approach difference than the work itself, of course.)

So going back to the 'breaking it down' bit:

The question is: "Who cares?" I mean literally, who is it that we are doing this for? Don't the people who genuinely care about blinding already consider carefully their own protocol, use discretion when reviewing their own or others' protocol, and communicate with integrity about protocol? So that's the "choir" I refer to above.

So for whom are we further-defining the blinding word? Do they care? Would they use it? If they don't even carefully evaluate things now, or communicate accurately now, why would other people on the internet, with any new word or term or way of doing things, influence them to do so?

I'm just pointing out the reality that I and others have faced for a long time and that you are reaching many years after we did. You still have hope. :-)  Most of us shrugged and finally gave up long ago. I want to encourage that hope... maybe it will accomplish something for the sheer reason of not knowing you can't. But if you want to change something you have to look at what you are targeting for change so you can measure if it happens. Because I suspect in the end it won't be "remote viewing" you want to change, but rather, "loud public influential people presenting about remote viewing," and there's nothing you can do about those.

7. Viewer is blind when he does not know the cue beforehand. He can only know the target reference number.
(I consider the cue to be whatever indicator is given the viewer to begin (e.g. 'Describe the target'). I think you mean the task name or tasker-intent or whatever, that's fine. Some people use these words differently.)

I would hope the vast majority of the time this defines the work. But of course, unless the viewer has their own project manager, usually they will also know, at a minimum, the source of the task. This is assuming they're working soloblind so there are no other considerations like informed people in physiological proximity.

And that assumes on no more subtle issues, like the tasker being a True Believer(tm) of some kind, which I consider just as damaging to end result as wrecking the blinding in its own way, but never mind, that is a different topic.

As I've said privately, every blinding protocol is custom to the reason for viewing which is usually the focus of the judging/usage of the data. So it should be "appropriate" "for that distinct situation."

The same viewers may use very different blinding protocols depending on what they're doing. It's a "reason for viewing" -- if they get more out of some frontloading and even midloading and they feel it's educating their growing experience as a viewer, then that blinding protocol is their choice; the only "issue" is, if they share the session data they should be honest about the protocol.

There isn't a single setup that says "this is remote viewing" or "this is not remote viewing," but there IS an "appropriate" element, based on the science-lab origin that says "anybody with half a brain ought to be able to learn this and make decent decisions about it in context."

The problem is that people who do have half a brain learn it and make poor decisions about it, for many reasons that have nothing to do with objective evaluation of what is 'appropriate.' And sometimes they teach this or influence it upon others.

So then people like you, onlooking, say, "This makes no sense! Person X is doing ___ and person Y is doing __ and they don't even compare to each other, yet X is using the same term to describe it!" Yes, yes they are, and sadly there is not a darn thing anybody can do about that.

We could certainly develop an "idealized examples of blinding protocols" for a variety of situations if you would like, as a simple guideline for new viewers who might be having trouble understanding the "appropriate in context" part. Is that something you think would help?

PJ
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If you love it enough, anything will talk with you. -- George Washington Carver

"A rose by any other name" would probably be "thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra

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Slorri

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 05:02:34 PM »
Howdy Slorri,

...
PJ

You are doing here what I am well prepared for, you are creating straw-man arguments.

So I will kindly but firmly redirect back to our question at hand. We are not talking about any RV-protocols, how RV should be performed, how people behave or any claim that we can't change things.

We are only talking about the meaning of the word "blind" when used in RV. That is, the semantics of the word.

If we did put in the word "blind" as our condition in a session, then we must have meant something with it, unless we happens to be a robot, who just writes words without knowing what they mean. Same thing if we claim, for instance, that RV must be done "blind", or it doesn't need to be fully "blind". Or what ever like that.

We go to the sewing supply shop and ask for some black darning thread. And they just reach up on the shelf and hand us some. Because the words are defined and understood. We do not go to the store and say: "Guess what I want? I'm not going to tell you. And there is nothing you can do about that."



The number 3 in the list was intended as a horror example of liberal definition of a word. It stretches from no information up to all the information in the world, except for the "targeted information". Number 3 is sifted directly from out of the TKR protocol.

Number 3 reduces the meaning of the word down to nothing. With that definition there is no way possible we can be anything else than "blind". If you give the viewer also the "targeted information" beforehand, what is he then supposed to do?

Daz Smith

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 06:41:30 PM »
Well, this has become a murky topis over the years becasue so many people are taught incorrectly or are self assumed experts making things up as they go along, add to this the internet, words and human communication and you get an inevitable scale.

Wikipedia states blind as:
Quote
A blind or blinded-experiment is an experiment in which information about the test is masked (kept) from the participant, to reduce or eliminate bias, until after a trial outcome is known. It is understood that bias may be intentional or unconscious, thus no dishonesty is implied by blinding. If both tester and subject are blinded, the trial is called a double-blind experiment.

What this doesn't state is how much information differentiates what is or is not BLIND.

Now, lets look at this list shall we:

Quote
It ranges from:
1. No information is given to the viewer.
Yes, IMO that would be BLIND and IF the takser is also BLIND then this could be Double BLIND - the preferred science method, but also not very practical outside of a lab and done part time by only a few people like 99% of most remote viewing.

Quote
2. No information is given and measures are taken so that the viewer can not even anticipate the target or the context of the task.
Getting towards being double blind but not quite there.

Quote
3. Any amount of information can be given to the viewer, as long as he is not given what is called “the targeted information”.
Not blind at all and incorrect.

Quote
4. Variations of the above. Where 1. or 2. is officially claimed but 3. is used.
Not blind, not correct, and is bad practice.


Quote
5. The claim that the word blind is already defined in science and we can’t change that, while not revealing how it is to be adopted to remote viewing.
I dont understand, is this a statement?

Quote
6. Fill in the blank...
Definitely NOT remote viewing.

Quote
7. Viewer is blind when he does not know the cue beforehand. He can only know the target reference number.
This would depend on if any other information is given?


SOME people especially when doing ops work and NOT Validation of psi for labs, Use front loading. I personally do not mind this 'IF' everyone is informed in all claims/documents/media that front loading was used and how much was given.

I have no real problem in time and cost sensitive projects in a viewer being told the target is a:
structure, object, event life or location.

This allows them to tailor their information to achieve the best results without knowing any real 'specific' information on the target leaving Billions of possibilities.
anything more than this is a rocky road to ruin, IMO.

The real confusion is in people making claims and NOT properly detailing exactly the project proposition and how it was constructed. and in poor overall RV education. Leaving people confused - but in reality its very simple. I believe.


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mscir

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Re: Definition of the word blind in remote viewing.
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 07:01:03 PM »
Very clear, and should be the standard. Hope you consider editing the Wikipedia page.

 


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