pjrv : Messages : 1608-1626 of 4038
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 23:12:26

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#1608
 	From: "David Humphries" 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 11:48 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE experiences 	a_healey56

  	  	

Hey PJ,

My last post was experiential.  Where's my star? :-)

Dave

---------------------------
Moderator's note: LOL.  Actually the list has been really terrific the last six
weeks or so, I have to admit, and you're part of that. :-)  PJ

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#1626
 	From: Karl Boyken 
Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 9:47 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE experiences 	kboyken

  	  	

> I like the rainbow analogy. I will mention one
> other "band" experience.

This spectrum-of-consciousness idea sounds a lot like
the Monroe focus levels, too.

--
Karl Boyken
kboyken...t
http://soli.inav.net/~kboyken/

We dance 'round in a ring and suppose,
while the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
    --Robert Frost

pjrv : Messages : 1600-1676 of 4038
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 23:15:35

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#1600
 	From: "Scott Ellis" 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 12:23 am
Subject: OBE experiences 	scottrver

  	  	

Anyone with OBE experience?

Is it common in OBE experiences to see the room you are in, but
something's a little wrong with it?

I think I had my second OBE two nights ago but I'm not quite sure -
starting from a lucid dream this time.  To check if I was dreaming I
jumped in the air to fly like superman.  Something happened as never
before and I somehow found myself in my bedroom floating on my back
about a foot above the bed. It sure didn't seem like a lucid dream
anymore.  Everything seemed exceptionally real but when I looked at
the wall, light landed on it in a pattern that wasn't quite right for
coming through the window.  I was more than a bit startled, as in
scared, by the unexpected sequence of events and so I decided to end
it by wiggling my toes and I immediately was in my body and awake.  I
forgot to look beneath me so I didn't get a chance to see if my wife
and I were there.  Again I'm not quite sure what this was, but I've
never had a lucid dream like this and I was definitely conscious.
By the way, this occurred the same day I had read an article that
resulted in me deciding I was open to having an OBE again.

Scott

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#1602
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 2:02 am
Subject: Re: OBE experiences 	docsavagebill

  	  	

Hi Scott,

Eve or Nita should comment.. but all the experts I've
read indicate that imaginary elements occur in OBE's
and even NDE's. According to people like Bruce..the
OBE world is actually an inner  "reconstruction" of
the real world. A  model that resembles the Matrix
actually. So having some things off or AOL is
reasonable..or may indicate intrusion of other astral
realities. There is also no clear demarcation between
a lucid dream and an OBE..it seems a coninuum IMO. It
brings to mind  a favorite OBE, which was  verified
intermally by a meeting OBE with another OBEer who
later verified it.   In that OBE     my conciousness
divided into three separate scenes... . part   was
still in trance in bed... part  was   OBE meeting
another OBEer..and part  was having a lucid dream of
being at the opera.all at the same time...G

Best Regards,

Bill

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#1610
 	From: "Sharon Webb" 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: OBE experiences 	sharwebb_30512

  	  	

Scott,

Sounds like an OBE to me.  The "room" you find yourself in is usually an astral
creation, so it does differ some from your "real" room.

Sharon
sharwebb...net
www.fractalus.com/sharon

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#1603
 	From: "PJ Gaenir" 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 10:49 am
Subject: Re: OBE experiences 	dennanm

  	  	

Hiya Scott,

(And a gold star for posting 'experientially', lol.)

> Anyone with OBE experience?

I have a lot more OBE experience than RV experience.  I suppose
because RV by nature of the term is deliberate, whereas OBE is
usually spontaneous. I'm not any good at *deliberately* OBEing, but
have on occasion.

In my experience it's highly correlated with the ability to dream
lucidly in some respects; the 'cycles' of them both usually come
together for me.  McMoneagle notes he thinks LD's are often
the 'jumping off points' for OBE's.

I did both all my life and was really astonished when I grew up and
discovered this wasn't normal for everybody. And that some people
didn't even "believe in" one or both! LOL!  That just seemed so
crazy!  Like disagreeing that the sky looked blue or something!

> Is it common in OBE experiences to see the room you are in,
> but something's a little wrong with it?

Yes - not wrong, just different than in your 'normal' state.

> starting from a lucid dream this time.

A lot of people tend to invalidate OBE's if they begin from a dream
state.  So many do, though, that this invalidates the majority of
what most people have of them.  I assume most people -- at least I
can, and always could -- can tell the difference between a dream and
an OBE.

> To check if I was dreaming I jumped in the air to fly like
> superman. Something happened as never before and I somehow found
> myself in my bedroom floating on my back about a foot above the
> bed. It sure didn't seem like a lucid dream anymore.

Sounds like you jumped in the air all right. ;-)

> I've never had a lucid dream like this and I was definitely
> conscious.

Although lucid dreams can often seem even realer-than-real somehow,
the difference between an LD and a regular OBE is usually pretty
clear to the person experiencing it.

I remember early in the RV online days a lot of people insisted that
RV and OBE's were the same thing.  I had to humorously conclude that
they had obviously never *had* an OBE or they would know the
difference.  It is pretty distinctive and does not happen while you
are writing something on paper - that is 'dissociation' [to the
degree of traveling clairvoyance which is an entirely different
thing, though it has a couple similar effects].

> By the way, this occurred the same day I had read an article
> that resulted in me deciding I was open to having an OBE again.

Cool!  You see, you ask, you get!  :-)

As for the "something being wrong" with your room, how you interpret
that really depends on your own experience and which expert you
listen to.  Some will suggest that anything that doesn't properly
match "this" reality is imagination or basically a dream or sorts
within the OBE state.

Though some of that might exist, as far as it being a general
explanation, I disagree with that - a lot.

In my experience, our consciousness is a whole spectrum of frequency -
I call it "The Rainbow of Soul."  It's a continuum and a "gradient
scale" where PERCEPTION exists at all points but as far as the "you"
you know as you, ATTENTION is the moving point.

Consider "you" in this model to be a rainbow -- white light, divided
into frequency-bands like color, a whole spectrum.  Consider the
physical reality we know to be "red"; astral as some call it to
be "orange"; mental as some call it to be "yellow"; and so on.

It is not that only the red-band is 'aware' - "you".  "YOU" are a
larger entity that encompasses the entire spectrum - and interacts
constantly, with potentially infinite levels of reality experience
throughout that spectrum.

In this gradient spectrum, every smallest shade between red and
orange - many that are varying %s of both colors - is its own "active
perception" which interacts with what it perceives to be reality.

From red to orange there may be 1001 options in other words - very
subtle shades of color/tone (frequency) difference.  Within the "red
band" -- the "I" that I know -- is actually a heck of a 'range' of
subtle shades of identity.  There is not just "one" perception that
is "me" and everything else is some kind of hallucination.  "I" as a
body span some of the red band and am physically equipped to perceive
most of what I consider the rest of it.  But it's a 'span' of
frequency.  My attention -- "where" I am perceiving "from" within
that red-band's smaller spectrum -- varies.

Sometimes, the physical world seems incredibly crisp; clear.  High-
definition life.  I believe this is when our *attention* is most
solidly centered in the span of frequency that the things we perceive
in this reality are within. Tangibility comes in degrees.  Sometimes,
things seem more distant. Unreal.  Sure, this is state of mind -- but
it is 'attention' -- the attention wanders not just 20 minutes into
the future but wanders away like a HAM radio moving slightly out of
phase with its station - it's still heard, but is fainter, less
differentiated.  The concept of "grounding" is essentially the
concept of "centering within this red frequency band".  Getting as
close to the 'real' - to the 'physically vivid' - as possible.
Calling yourself, your attention, back "home."

We as an entity are a lot larger and more aware than we give
ourselves credit for.  And we know this I think, as babies I suspect
we are already existing and interacting on many levels of
consciousness even though we are just beginning "here" (in the red
band).  In my perception, any of the 'color bands' can "unmanifest"
(like when someone dies, the red 'unmanifests') and then "remanifest"
however it pleases -- the larger entity (soul, if you want to call it
that) is not at all diminished by such an event.  White light is
still white light, whether or not it has chosen to prism into a
rainbow, or of what particular shades at any given time.

Using a different allegory, imagine we are playing Monopoly.  When my
perception "leaves my body," it is not like my little car moved from
where it was lying in bed on Baldwin Ave. and hopped 11 spaces over
to Tennessee Ave.  Rather, *I am the whole board.  I perceive from
every place.  Every color all the way around is ME.*  So, I simply
decide to "be" the top hat which "exists at" Tennessee Ave.

_I perceive reality "through that part of me."_

Now, say Tennessee Ave. is in the orange band -- and I clearly "FEEL"
that I have a body there. However, I can very clearly FEEL that it is
not as solid/heavy as "the part of me which exists in the red band",
and I can physically move my perception of self in ways that I can't
in the red band -- I can physically move my 'orange-band-body' right
out of the general same-space it usually shares with the red band
part of me, and I can FEEL the 'separation' of myself.

Contrary to what most people seem sure is the case, the body does not
cease to perceive when "we" leave it.  In fact one of the most
bizarre experiences I ever had was a fully conscious OBE when for the
first time ever, "I" -- my ATTENTION -- remained with the part of me
that was in the body, and the REST of me left!  I'd never even
considered such a thing! -- However, the perception we consider
normal is a very multi-dimensional thing, as this made clear; the
separate perception is much more limited when our attention bilocates
that literally.

When our attention comes back (from an OBE) into the red-band, our
brain -- which for our sanity works very hard to maintain a single,
reasonably linear stream of 'memory' -- decides what to accept as the
linear reality for that period we call time.  There is good reason
for the mind to be selective and only remember ONE "reality" "at a
time".

Now say you are lying in bed and you are dreaming -- you are
likely "perceiving through the part of you which is in the YELLOW
(mental) band" at that time.  It has its own lives -- and as there
are so many degrees of yellow, it actually has MANY of them.  That is
why in dreams we often (at least I do!) know "our world" there - we
have lived there all our life -- it is a concurrent identity, it's
simply that since we spend 99.9% of our time paying attention to the
red band, only once in a a great while do we drop into paying
attention to level 412 of the yellow band, where we happen to be
person or entity X with Y situation and these Z people we have known
our entire lives-there.  When we wake up -- our attention back in the
red band -- we think, "I've dreamed about that world before."  Sure.
It's always there.

We ALWAYS perceive there.  We are ALWAYS dreaming, we are ALWAYS in
the astral, we are ALWAYS in the physical.  We don't move from one to
another spacially, we move our *attention* from one to the other.
Our physical brain only (usually) allows the MEMORY of one thing at a
time is all.

Sometimes briefly, people become aware of more than one level of
perception at a time.  They may be dreaming, traveling astrally, and
repairing cells, and there may in fact be 2,411,247 OTHER "levels of
perception" going on at the same time -- but their mind may for a
moment become aware of more than one -- maybe two or three at the
most -- simultaneously.

When people do this on waking up or falling asleep they usually
consider it an anomaly and some kind of split-brain imagination.  But
when you have this happen to you for fairly extended periods - at
least a couple minutes - when you are wide awake, repeatedly, you
begin to realize that this is not just hallucination -- all these
existences are valid and simultaneous and all "you".  They are just
not "here" as we think of here.

I hope I've explained the concepts enough that what I say following,
responding to your comment about the room being different, will then
make sense.  It has to be considered in the 'framework' of the theory
explained.

Our "attention" can ripple through the many shades of our rainbow-of-
soul like it is water.  Our attention can move from red (physical) to
orange (astral) to yellow (dream) and back again.  It can split into
separate points-of-attention, and we are aware simultaneously in
two 'places' (points of perception) at once.

What happens when someone is capable of splitting the attention but
both parts are in the red-band of the physical?  I suspect this ties
into the legend of some saints able to 'be more than one place at a
time'.  They may not have been aware they were doing it, but I
believe it is possible, though rare for "attention" to be developed
to that degree.

When you have an OBE -- better phrased, when you become aware of
yourself as separate from your physical body (your
*attention* "moved") -- you may still be "in the bandwidth of the
physical plane." You might be perceiving from a part of the Scott-
Spectrum which is somewhere between red and orange -- more orange
than red, but still also "in" the red band. You may see "reality"
around you pretty much like you did when you were IN your body.

As your perception moves more toward the astral (orange) on the
spectrum, the "reality" you perceive will change. First, things may
seem mostly the same yet slightly variant. A chair may be in a
different place. Your coat may be on the back of the chair, rather
than lying on the bed. As you continue toward astral, more
significant changes may be clear, and some features of "normal
reality" may disappear from your perception. You begin to perceive
more of the reality -- and the life -- there, and less of what is
here. You may see your cat who died years before, sleeping on your
bed. You may encounter entities, or discover that the tree outside
your house seems to be sentient. The farther you go into this
bandwidth, the more different things become. At some point, you will
lose most if not all perception of what we would call "our physical
reality" (the red band) because your perception has moved outside
that range (fully into the orange band).

It is not that you were just hallucinating the cat, or that the chair
was in a different place.  If you imagine the spectrum-of-self as a
Kaleidascope, it's just that when you slightly shift that tube, even
though it's all the same little colored pieces of energy that make up
the picture of reality, they are now in a slightly different
relationship to each other.  The picture is slightly different.  The
farther you turn the tube -- or the farther you move your attention --
  the more different it is going to look, until "by degrees", finally
the pattern is wholly different.  (Same energy.  Different pattern,
as it's a different 'focus'.)

The more "in the "physical" bandwidth" you are, the more you can
physically feel things that you touch. "Here" as we know it, if you
walk up to a wall and don't stop, you're going to feel it painfully
when you run into it. In the orange band, you may go right through a
wall, and feel it as if your body were made of water, or some solid-
yet-not-solid substance. Entities that touch you may register quite
physically to your perception, as if they were totally solid and yet
somehow were able to reach inside your body. As your perception moves
more into the astral and then yellow band, you may cease to be aware
of any physical feelings; you can pass through the wall as if it is
not even there.  It is just a change in "where" in yourself you are
perceiving "from". The farther from the red band you get, the less
one tends to be aware of a physical body.

As you move further toward the mental (yellow) bandwidth, things
continue to change. For example, you may not only not FEEL the wall
you pass through, it might not even exist, and you may find that the
moment you think of something -- for instance, your friend in another
city -- suddenly either your friend is "there with you" or you are
somewhere else with your friend. Awareness of form, such as one's
body, may often vanish altogether. You still may operate as if you
have a form, you simply may not be pointedly aware of it.

I don't know anything about the green-blue-indigo-violet bands of the
rainbow analogy; I only have experience with the red-to-yellow, or
physical-astral-mental as some metaphysics calls them.  However, I do
believe that we exist just as thoroughly throughout that spectrum as
we do those I've described.  (Some of the above text I lifted from my
case study 'Bewilderness' which talked about this.)

I believe the polarized "separation" of "different bodies," like
coats on a coat rack we put on lol, is logical if new to the
experience, but when one lives constantly in and out of OBE and
astral states much of their life, the perception of how it all works
tends to change a little, become less black and white and separated,
less a matter of "going there" than "always being there and simply
choosing to pay attention to it briefly".

Sorcerors, shamans, magicians, and others work to intensify, clarify,
and improve their "attention" -- their focus, and "how much it can
hold".  Concurrent with this development tends to come a lot of
experiences that are considered 'unusual' by the masses, such as
OBE's, psychic info, meeting entities, etc.  I believe it is merely a
matter of the attention opening up and strengthening and
allowing 'more' into our awareness than merely the red band stuff.

I think the more we practice remote viewing and anything else that
forces both attention and awareness and openness to perceiving info
from 'outside' the red band alone, the more we develop these aspects
of ourselves, and more spontaneous experiences that arise.

I will end this with a true account of an OBE that I had about eight
years ago.  I had been sleeping on my friend's living room floor on
cushions and in a sleeping bag.  I woke up and laid there for
awhile.  It was early morning.

My friend M. was already up, and was sitting quietly about 15' from
me at the kitchen table, balancing her checkbook I believe.  I had
turned my head slightly to look at her, and was wondering if I should
let her know I was awake, or lie there awhile more as I was
comfortable.  I turned my eyes back to the ceiling and thought, maybe
I should get up.  I dunno... I don't really want to yet.

Then I rolled over to look at M. again -- and rolled right out of my
body by accident.  I was surprised as it was unexpected, but it
wasn't a big deal (as I mentioned, I'd had OBEs my whole life). But
the part that surprised me was, lying there just slightly turned out
of my physical body, she was sitting at the table, checkbook there --
but she was turned to the side, and there were three people there --
one in full-on native (amerind) gear, feathers and the whole nine
yards -- talking with her.  I couldn't hear them, but I understood
that I just wasn't quite in the right 'place' to perceive that and
could be if I tried.  I was thinking to myself, "Just slide out of
body and it's like this close-parallel, yet different, reality, that
is SO interesting!"

I rolled back into my body.  "Now that was odd," I thought.  "What a
great example of how the levels vary," I was thinking.  I turned only
my head back to M. and looked at her.  She sat quietly working on her
checkbook.  I looked back up at the ceiling and thought -- "I gotta
see."  So I rolled out of my body again, and sure enough, there they
all were, and her turned, talking with them.  I looked at them for
awhile, musing about a bit, and thinking to myself how interesting it
was that she was in the same place, for example, in both 'realities'.
It really made me wonder how much of our lives are not nearly
as ... 'spontaneous and independent' as we think.  Did she sit in
that chair because she wanted to, or because various other aspects of
her were sitting in it, as if that called her to be comfortable with
doing that in some way?

I rolled back in my body.  I then went to roll out again -- but alas,
was too awake due to all my fascinated left brain consideration, and
my physical body turned too -- I was too grounded by then.

Of course that is only one of a life's worth of OBEs, but it's an
example: I would not for a moment consider that the "differences" in
my environment were one of a dream, imagination, hallucination, or
confusion.  Yes, things were different -- as they usually are -- but
I believe that is a matter of the sliding scale of our perception.
The farther away from center-red-band you get, the more things will
change, sometimes little things, sometimes major things.

It is just a slight turn of the kaleidascope tube. The energy is
arranged, perceived, manifested (visible) differently.

PJ

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#1612
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OBE experiences 	docsavagebill

  	  	

Hi PJ,

Beautiful essay on your astral experiences. I like the
rainbow analogy. I will mention one other "band "
experience. I was just waking up.. and comming from a
very deep delta sleep to a groggy awake state..  I
became aware that each stage of awakening was a world
unto its own. At just ONE frequency/one shade/..there
was a tremendous erotic tug.. which disappeared as I
came more towards awake.. Wierd! So I meditated back
down to nearly asleep again.. still peaceful and came
up more slowly..nothing at the deeper states,, but
right at about the midway point from sleep to
awake..there it was again!.. I held at that point but
could see or hear nothing..but it was full of eros.
Slowly a pencil line started sketching something over
the top of me.. Like a Ouiga working on its own.. I
had no idea what it was sketching..until almost
finished and the outline of a female figure appeared
over me.. and details started being penciled in...!
This surprised me so much I lost my hold on the window
of reality and  awoke! But the whole experience was
just in one THIN slice of conciousness between awake
and asleep on little shade of orange. Made me wonder
what was going on in the whole spectrum any given
night.

Bill*

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#1640
 	From: "Scott Ellis" 
Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 11:40 pm
Subject: Re: OBE experiences 	scottrver

  	  	

Thanks to all who replied to my post.  It's funny, I've read a
reasonable amount about OBEs but it was very nice to get some first
hand feedback from others.  Somehow reading about it just doesn't
strike home as powerfully as the experience.  It's just not as subtle
as RV.  Anyway, your responses helped validate and ground the
experience quite a bit and  and I'm very appreciative.  PJ, I really
enjoyed your perspective on the fine granularity of the OBE spectrum.

Regards to all,

Scott

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#1621
 	From: "Nita Hickok" 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: Re: OBE experiences 	nitahickok

  	  	

Hi Scott
    Light will look different at times in a OBE if you are seeing the
energy involved in the sunlight. You will find when you OBE that it
will have extra senses that you use. Emotions come through as colors
along with the words. It can be abstract at times but a lot of times
it is just all of the extra information that can be picked up.
    I have been able to OBE for as long as I can remember. I have
helped quite a few people out of the bodies so they can project. I
think most people project and don't remember it. They are really
doing it all of the time without knowing what is going on until they
have a moment where they have to admit that it isn't a dream.
    Nita

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#1676
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Sun Dec 8, 2002 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: OBE experiences 	k9caninek9

  	  	

> Scott wrote:
> Is it common in OBE experiences to see the room you are in, but
> something's a little wrong with it?

Yes, it's very common.  There are a million theories about why that
happens.  One of the popular ones is that you are in the etheric
plane which is just removed from the physical plane and although it
looks similar, it is more influenced by random thoughts and so can
vary a bit from the physical.

> I think I had my second OBE two nights ago ...[snip]...
> never had a lucid dream like this and I was definitely conscious.

You are describing classic OBE stuff.  IMO, the diff between OBE and
lucid dream in not easily demarcated.  It may well be more an issue
of a continuum than a readily defined line.  That's my current theory
anyway!
-E

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 23:23:24

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#1620
 	From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" 
Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 7:20 pm
Subject: Re: OBE Experiences 	ozblueriver

  	  	

Hi everyone,

I think I've had an OBE as well. I have wondered if it was an OBE or something
else.

Just like Scott, I had read something to do with OBE's and went to bed willing
to have one of my own. After I settled into a relaxed state I heard a sound
similar to the roar of the ocean. I kept calm and told myself that this was it
and to roll out of my body.

I rolled out but I was in the house I lived it as a teenager. I got up out of
bed fully aware and went into the next room where my mum was sitting. (Mum died
4 years ago.) She couldn't see me so I tilted the painting on the wall. That got
her attention so I tilted it again. She watched it in fascination. I didn't want
to scare her so I decided to go back to my normal body. I tripped over a hat
stand on my way which caused it to fall. I then got back into my body and woke
up.

The whole time I was totally aware that I was attempting and succeeding to have
an OBE but I have been under the impression that OBE's were confined to the
present time and space.
I would love to know if mum ever saw that painting move and our hat stand fall.
Wouldn't that be a spin out.

So my question is.....Can OBE's happen in the past or future?

Oh, and by the way, has anyone experienced a painting as a 3D world? Once I was
in an altered state and entered into one of the paintings on my wall. It became
a beautiful world all of it's own.

Cheers
Liz

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#1629
 	From: "Nita Hickok" 
Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 4:58 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	nitahickok

  	  	

Hello Elizabeth
    You can go back in the past or future with a OBE. It is amazing
all the things that you can do. You can also go into a 3d painting. I
have gone into a drop of water before it is whatever you feel like
doing and what you have the talent for doing.
    Nita

> Elizabeth wrote:
> So my question is.....Can OBE's happen in the past or future?
> Oh, and by the way, has anyone experienced a painting as a 3D world?

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#1632
 	From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" 
Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 5:12 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	ozblueriver

  	  	

Hi Nita,

   Thanks for answering my questions. That solves one mystery for me. I have
another question, well actually I have thousands, but if you could answer one
more I'd be really grateful. LOL

   Every night I go to bed and close my eyes. After a few minutes I'm off flying.
I never feel myself leave my body but I'm fully aware and in control. My
surroundings are always crystal clear. Everything seems even clearer and
brighter than normal. Is that OBE too or something else?

   Cheers
   Liz

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#1638
 	From: "Nita Hickok" 
Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	nitahickok

  	  	

Hello Elizabeth
    A lot of times the dreams where you are flying and use more layers to
interpret it can be OBE's. A lot of people don't notice how they leave their
bodies. I would keep a dream journal and that way you will know in time
whether you are projecting or not. Most people know right away but some
don't.
     Nita

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#1643
 	From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 1:43 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	maliolana

  	  	

Aloha Liz,

Yes I do see most photos as alive...moving...as long as any type of
energy form is present...IE: machines/plants/biologicals/people
/animals/aliens(G))
even rocks/valcanoes...water

That diving into other worlds is how I usually felt when reading an
excellant book...or daydreaming...I always felt such disollution when a
wonderful book/daydream  ends...Just as if I had lost an important part
of my life...Just for a short while...I feel psi as a similiar bi
location exercise...at some level or other...

I have managed many wonderful things in daydream...but I never considered
them under the umbrella of OOB before...and I have had future dreams that
came true...eventually...many years later...and they were only slightly
fantasized...altered from the future reality...

I don't know if I have ever oobed before...I am still not completely sure
I understsnd it...

Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna

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#1645
 	From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" 
Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 5:58 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	ozblueriver

  	  	

G'day Nita,

> A lot of times the dreams where you are flying
> and use more layers to interpret it can be OBE's.
> A lot of people don't notice how they leave their
> bodies. I would keep a dream journal and that way
> you will know in time whether you are projecting
> or not. Most people know right away but some don't.

when I go to bed and fly I'm fully awake and fully aware. There is no dreaminess
about it at all. It is exactly the same as real life, but clearer and slightly
brighter.

It takes me quite a while to go to sleep so I amuse myself by flying while I
wait. I just close my eyes and there is the other world. I do have to change
focus though. It actually took me a while to learn how to turn it off so I could
choose to see nothing when I close my eyes if I wanted to.

From what you and others have said it seems that I have been under the wrong
impression about OBE's.

I have always thought they were:

1. a vary rare thing
2.You were supposed to be aware of leaving your body.
3. they were confined to this time and space.

I had a lucid dream recently which was totally different. I was aware I was
dreaming and knew I could change what ever I liked within the dream. My flying
is different again. It is just the same as real life except I can fly. And
rather than changing anything, like you can in a lucid dream, it's more a case
of I can direct myself to go wherever I want to, such as over hill and dale or
into space. It's a very cheap way to travel. LOL

I'm laughing at myself because I have wanted to OBE for years and now it seems
to be that I've been doing it for years every night before I go to sleep. LOL 
What a goose I am!   I'll be laughing about this for a week.

I'm having the new experience of being able to put nice little labels on
everything I do. :)

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it.

Have a groovy day
Liz

--------------------------
Moderator's note: There's a couple other possibilities I suspect.  One is
sometimes referred to as traveling clairvoyance, where people have the sensation
they are flying and looking down over the region they are choosing to explore
(this can happen in RV as well and usually is a sign of major target contact
when it happens I think).  And, I am not sure what our 'internal' landscapes are
capable of or consist of.  For years I did structured archetype meditations,
which as part of their nature are sort of another, deliberately constructed
little piece of world.  Well what was funny was, one day an archetype (my sun),
took me to someplace I had never been before in this world -I mean it was quite
literally its own world, replete with people and buildings and so forth, it was
a highly 'autonomous' experience led by the archetype and I was completely blown
away.  It had never much occurred to me that beyond my little garden of sacred
space, I could be led a couple miles through a field, onto an elevated 2'
'moving sidewalk', which went on for quite some ways and moved into a town, and
in the town we got off (some steps down), and went up this cobblestone street
(streets were off the sidewalk in both directions, like it was the only form of
transport besides walking), and into this building at the end which was a hotel
or something like that, and back to the elevator and up, and down the hall to
the room at the end... it was so astonishingly REAL, and I was wide awake mind
you in the meditation, though during that time I did seem to have a lot of
Delta, judging by the oddities in my reality... I seriously didn't know what to
think about that, still don't. I guess I could call it a dream reality - those
meds are 'conscious dreaming'.  But it really felt like it was a real place with
life of its own and I was just there, as opposed to my wholly creating it (most
of it I paid no attention to). It has kind of left me wondering, just how many
'worlds' there are, and how we might interact with them. -- PJ

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#1698
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:22 am
Subject: Re: OBE Experiences 	k9caninek9

  	  	

> Liz wrote:
> it seems that I have been under
> the wrong impression about OBE's.
> I have always thought they were:

> 1. a vary rare thing

Actually, standard OBE lore has it that you have them all the time at
night, but just do not transfer the memory to the concious mind.
It's bringing the conscious mind with you that's the rare part.

> 2.You were supposed to be aware of leaving your body.

No, this gets missed a lot of the time.

> 3. they were confined to this time and space.

No discernable limits have been found.  Looks like you can definitely
transcent time and space, kinda the same rules as RV, except no one
will tell you that it's not OBE without feedback.  LOL!

> I had a lucid dream recently which was
> totally different. [snip]
> And rather than changing anything,
> like you can in a lucid dream, it's
> more a case of I can direct myself to go
> erever I want to, such as over hill and
> dale or into space. It's a very cheap way
> to travel. LOL

If you have LDs, you can use them as a launch for OBEs.  It's much
easier from an LD, maybe cuz LDs are are close state to OBEs.  They
way I do it is is run or fly into any fence or wall or tree that
exists in the dream and I tell myself that when I hit the barrier, I
will burst out of the dream and into an OBE.  Try it, it's loads of
fun!

> I'm laughing at myself because I have
> wanted to OBE for years and now it
> seems to be that I've been doing it for
> years every night before I go to sleep.
> LOL  What a goose I am!   I'll be laughing
> about this for a week.

I think like anything, OBE seems to exist on a continuum.  SOmetimes
it feels really physical, like my body is there, and other times it's
more mental, like my sense of vision is moving around but I have no
body with me.

-E

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#1647
 	From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" 
Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 6:28 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	ozblueriver

  	  	

> Dawna wrote:
> Yes I do see most photos as alive...moving...as long
> as any type of energy form is present...IE:
> machines/plants/biologicals/people/animals/aliens(G))
> even rocks/valcanoes...water

Hi Dawna,

That's really interesting. I'm curious to know what you would consider as having
no energy.

Cheers Liz

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#1661
 	From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 4:38 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	maliolana

  	  	

Aloha Liz,
Ummm good question...well I don't really decide what I see in session (at
least I try not to)...I will have to ask my sub that...haha...I guess I
do see most things as having some energy component...just variations on a
theme...

Some have a great deal and others have less...Some energy lines show that
they are thicker/thinner...more volitile or less...some move in circles
and others like lightening bolts and some are curved and others are
straight...
and the colors are an added effect...My diagrams are mostly energy forms
seen on a black background...and the manner in which they are moving...

I do see actual images sometimes...but even the man on the horse session
came through as a man on a bucking bronco......and then of course ...
there was the UFO energy signatures...

Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna

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#1742
 	From: "David Humphries" 
Date: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:58 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	a_healey56

  	  	

Kind of like platform # 9 3/4 at the train
station in the Harry Potter movies?

> If you have LDs, you can use them as a launch for OBEs.

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#1743
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:33 pm
Subject: Re: OBE Experiences 	k9caninek9

  	  	

All I can say is it seems if you run into a barrier in an LD and
think about OBEs at the same time, you are rather likely to at least
have some unusual and interesting sensations and altered states.
It's loads of fun and especially useful for those who have lots of
LDs.
-E

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#1755
 	From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" 
Date: Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:56 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	ozblueriver

  	  	

Hi Eva,
thanks for the advice on OBE's earlier on.

> Eva wrote.....
> If you have LDs, you can use them as a
> launch for OBEs.  It's much easier from
> an LD, maybe cuz LDs are are close state
> to OBEs.  They way I do it is is run or
> fly into any fence or wall or tree that
> exists in the dream and I tell myself that
> when I hit the barrier, I will burst out
> of the dream and into an OBE.  Try it,
> it's loads of fun!

LIZ: Now that does sound fun! I'll give it a try and let you know what happens.

> Eva wrote:
> I think like anything, OBE seems to exist
> on a continuum.  SOmetimes it feels really
> physical, like my body is there, and other
> times it's more mental, like my sense of
> vision is moving around but I have no body with me.

LIZ: I seem to get both types as well.

Once I was high up in the mountains camping. We got there at dark and had no
time to explore before morning. When I went to bed I kept myself amused by
'flying' for a while.

I had been going through a period of wanting proof that when I went flying I was
going to places in the physical rather than in my imagination and this time I
got the proof.

That night I spent ages 'flying' around what looked like the mountain I was
camping on, even though I hadn't seen it in daylight yet. At one point I noticed
what looked like a large white scar on the side of a mountain. I seemed to be
hovering over a cliff looking across a valley.
The next day a few of us went hiking. After a few hours we broke through some
trees and right in front of me was a cliff. As I looked out across the valley
there was the white scar on the next mountain side.

I was beside myself with excitement. It was exactly as I had seen it while
'flying' the night before. It could not have been memory as we drove up the
mountain in the dark and had hiked far up the mountain where I had never been
before.

That particular flying episode seemed to be a bodyless one. During perhaps 90%
of my flights I have no interest in a body. It's as if I just have my conscious
awareness that directs me. I don't even think to wonder if I have a body or not.
The only time a 'body' seems to play a role is if I think it should.

Because I have wrongly thought that OBE's required some sort of body awareness I
have tried to summon one up. LOL I'm laughing about it now as I write because it
all of a sudden seems like saying, "Oh, what will I wear tonight? Body or no
body?". But seriously, whether or not I have a body while flying does seem to go
hand in hand with my expectations.

Cheers
Liz

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#1762
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:21 pm
Subject: Re: OBE Experiences 	k9caninek9

  	  	

You know, the first few OBEs that I had after I consciously decided I
wanted to induce them were the classic kinds in which you feel the
vibrations of exit, float out, see your room, etc.  But after that, I
started to get more and more of the bodiless ones.  According to
Monroe, we use a diff astral body for long distance travel and so
that might explain it.  I suspect a lot of the OBE lore is because
the more classic type of experience feels just so much more immediate
and physical than the mind travel type one.  It would be easier to
palm off the mind travel events as imagination, except that they
really are rather without imagination as all you see is scenery!
-E

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#1779
 	From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" 
Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:24 am
Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences 	ozblueriver

  	  	

Hi Eva,

> It would be easier to palm off the mind
> travel events as imagination, except that
> they really are rather without imagination
> as all you see is scenery!

   I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying that it's usual to just see scenery
while mind traveling or are you refering to the fact that I personally just see
scenery?

   I find it quite odd that all I see ( in this particular mode of travel ) is
scenery, devoid of people or animals. If you are saying that is normal then I
think it is even odder! LOL  I wonder why that would be so?

   Cheers
   Liz

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#1791
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:05 pm
Subject: Re: OBE Experiences 	k9caninek9

  	  	

I was actually referring to how the mind travel episodes don't seem
like dreams because they are mostly just boring stuff like scenery.
Now that you mention it, I rarely see people.  I am often out in the
wilderness or on country roads.  But sometimes when I'm in a city, I
do see people.
-E

> Liz wrote:
> Are you saying that it's usual to just
> see scenery while mind traveling or are
> you refering to the fact that
> I personally just see scenery?
> I find it quite odd that all I see
> ( in this particular mode of
> travel ) is scenery, devoid of people
> or animals. If you are saying
> that is normal then I think it is even
> odder! LOL  I wonder why that
> would be so?

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#1633
 	From: "PJ Gaenir" 
Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: Paintings as energy (was OBE Experiences) 	dennanm

  	  	

Howdy Liz,

> I think I've had an OBE as well.
> I have wondered if it was an OBE
> or something else.

That seems so strange to me!  It isn't sort of... apparent?

Hmmmn.  I am remembering the first orgasm I ever had, and my mind
going, "Wow! That was - er, was that...? Naw - yes, it had to be! --"

OK.  Maybe not knowing it was really an OBE is not that weird. :-)

> I heard a sound similar to the roar of the ocean.

That's great!  Came right on.

> I rolled out but I was in the house I lived it as a teenager.

Interesting.

> I got up out of bed fully aware and went into
> the next room where my mum was sitting.
> (Mum died 4 years ago.)
> She couldn't see me so I tilted the painting
> on the wall. That got her attention so I tilted
> it again. She watched it in fascination. I
> didn't want to scare her so I decided to go
> back to my normal body. I tripped over a hat
> stand on my way which caused it to fall. I
> then got back into my body and woke up.

Now that is really interesting.  It sounds like you were in a place
on the spectrum where you had some degree of physicality.

('Alien abductions' are often a good example of 'OBE' sourcing being
in the range of physicality enough to leave quite physical evidence.)

> The whole time I was totally aware that I
> was attempting and succeeding to have an OBE
> but I have been under the impression that OBE's
> were confined to the present time and space.

Well dang Liz, normally they are experienced that way - but not
always - leave it to you to have something really cool and unusual
enough to leave us with more questions than answers, LOL!

> I would love to know if mum ever saw that
> painting move and our hat stand fall.
> Wouldn't that be a spin out.

It certainly would.

Sometimes... I don't know.  I don't know that there is only one
reality or one timeline.  I don't know that if we go back in time -
which can be done from anywhere, and is seldom done from 'this' state
of mind only because we've been taught it can't be - that we are
really accessing the identical reality we WERE in, or a reality that
is a near-identical close parallel.  I just don't have an answer for
that.

I did once have a very interesting experience related to time, in a
way, though.  When I was a kid, I used to daydream that "a big me" --
me in the future, big enough and fearless enough to defend me from my
stepmother -- would somehow, some way, come and save me.  Or that in
some way, that older me would come back in time to me, just to tell
me, "It is going to be okay.  You are going to survive.  You will
live to be old enough to escape."  I thought about that a lot in one
period when I was about 12.

I can't remember how this came about to be honest, I think I was
doing a meditation, and got sidetracked on a fleeting memory of
something from my past.  In any case, I was meditating, around age 28
or so, and suddenly I *made contact with myself in the past*.  I
mean, like I was two separate people, and yet one, in some way
difficult to describe.  And I (as the younger me) gasped, with this
huge internal cry of emotion, "It's YOU!  You came for me!  It's
really you!  I'm really OK!"  And I (as the older me) wrapped her in
my arms and smiled and said, "It's okay little one.  You are going to
be fine.  Just hold the line.  We're OK, have faith."

I came out of the meditation realizing I had tears running down my
face but I hadn't been aware of the older-me crying, only the younger-
me.  The odd thing was, although maybe this is not odd at all
psychologically, after this meditation experience, I vaguely
remembered such a thing, whereas before it, I remembered no such
thing.  I was really intrigued for quite awhile, wondering, did I
really go back in time even mentally, or was I just talking to my own
psychology?  I heard of a scientology technique for attempting to go
literally back in time.  I had an acquaintance who worked very hard
at this, went back to tell herself something, and then remembered
having as a child met this woman (who looked like she did then) and
it actually frightened her and she ceased attempting that.

I know one CAN go backward time-wise, but like I said, I am never
sure if it is exactly the 'same' timeline or one of "infinite
variations on reality" or something.

> So my question is.....Can OBE's happen in the past or future?

Sure.  That's been a little rare for me personally.  I have sometimes
encountered something -- like my cat who died years prior - quite
alive from that perception.  However, everything wasn't back in time
in that case, it was merely that he was still alive and sleeping
where he normally did.  That could have been something of a "residual
energy signature".  Then again, maybe I am just a residual energy
signature, LOL!

> has anyone experienced a painting as a 3D world?

Reminds me of Anthony's Xanth novels, the tapestry was a world.

I've had two potentially related things with paintings, but not
exactly. The first was a very astral-OBE-ish dream - by which I mean
it was OBE but I was technically asleep so most people would prefer
to call it a dream, I just happen to clearly know the difference
because it's pretty obvious experientially. It was involving two men
I haven't met, both were dead at the time - one for half a century.
One had created a painting of the other that had a truly ineffable
living-energy quality to it that was more than art, it was like some
kind of art, sculpture, music, conceptual experience, all rolled up
into one, but in the experience it was 'a painting'.

The second was an RV session where I was deliberately trying to do
some visuals with verbal description rather than normal method, and
only got three, but all three were very dynamic and sort of profound
in their own way.  I will copy in the two items below just in case
the association with a painting has any interest to you.

The first - {Excerpt from letter to friend, February, 1996}

Last night I found myself face to face with this painting; a portrait
of Crowley.  Not so much that it looked like he ever did; tough to
explain.  It was truly amazingly done, it managed to convey a huge
amount of emotion and information and depth.  Done in thick paints
like the days of old, it had real texture as well as visuals.  Yet it
was dominantly in these odd greens and angles that gave it this
rather Saturn-like, weird feeling, a bit of cold, impersonal and
unearthly feeling as one of the many overtones.

I turned to Israel (Regardie, who created it) and I said, "Israel,
it's beautiful, you've captured so much of his energy it's like the
portrait is alive; you always did have such a gift for empathic
insight, and this is real art.  And yet, I think the greens are
partly your own interpretation of him; I would have used less of
those, and a bit more deep blues."  And he admitted that was likely
the case, and then he reached out for me and we became like long
ribbons, or maybe snakes or strings, and we wound around each other
like a candy cane all the way out to the ends.  It felt so strange,
it was amazing!  It was like I could feel my (astral?) body just
thinning out and wrapping around his in a vortex-like spiral.  He was
a tremendously warm soul, and he gave me this feeling of
real "maturity" is the only word I can put to it; I relaxed into him
with a mix of gratitude and sensuousness and decided it had been far
too long since we'd been together and I'd really missed him.

After Israel and I had been winding around each other for some time,
always going upward, having a tremendously good time (strangely
intimate; not really sexual, I mean we didn't have normal bodies, but
so intensely intimate it defies words) Aleister showed up to take a
look at the portrait and comment on it.  I had missed him so much,
and I reached out to him and he took my hand and somehow was
connected to Israel as well when he did.  He seemed to accept that
Israel and I were old friends just as he and I seemed to be, and we
all contemplated the portrait as a "joined tripod unit of
consciousness" for a bit. (That was interesting...)

Then Aleister pulled back so he was an individual (mostly) and
said "Yes, Israel, right about the blues, I see more of them in me
than you do, but it's always been that way."  And Israel and I
directed our long swirled-entwined strings of bodies over closer to
the portrait, next to him, and looked at it again for awhile.  I
decided that he is far more understanding of Crowley now than he had
been when he was alive, or rather, that he now has fewer personal
issues in the way of expressing his insight.

Today I feel oddly like I merged with Israel and am now not entirely
the same person I was yesterday.

[end excerpt]

The second - notes Aug5 are in pjrv archives about this session -- I
was in a very altered state, and attempting 'image streaming' for a
session, talking into a handheld recorder.  I saw VIVIDLY this
skeleton, or like a person who melted to skeleton like in the end
of 'raiders of the lost ark', and the blood, and the skeleton's mouth
was open, like he was screaming, and his arms were up, and something
in one of them, I was not sure what, whether a gun, or scythe (like
the grim reaper) or bat, something 'long' - and I was so shocked and
amazed at the *intensity* of this that I backed away (in my mind I
guess!), and as I did, I realized more and more that it was like a
heavily painted portrait - I mean a 'thick/textural' painting - and
the more I backed away the more I realized it was just a painting...
but it had seemed so utterly real and alive when I first saw it.

Regards,
PJ

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#1694
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:32 pm
Subject: OBE forms-was Paintings as energy 	k9caninek9

  	  	

I was interested to read this part.  I had that happen once time also
when dreaming/OBEing/whatevering.  At the time, it was just mostly
fun plus a certain feeling of familiarity/love.  I'm rather sure that
time wasn't an isolated incident, but only one episode has thusfar
made it to conscious memory.  I have noticed that when OOB, it's just
really fun and relaxing to drop the human form and relax into
ectoplasm mode!
-E

> PJ wrote: we became like long
> ribbons, or maybe snakes or strings, and we wound around each other
> like a candy cane all the way out to the ends.  It felt so strange,
> it was amazing!  It was like I could feel my (astral?) body just
> thinning out and wrapping around his in a vortex-like spiral.