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#2535
 	From: "Glyn" 
Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:55 am
Subject: Precognitive Lucid Dream - Warning long 	gebega

  	  	

Hello all,

I know PJ likes experiential posts so I thought I'd post this. Some years ago I
was very interested in lucid dreams and  I will always remember an account that
one of the guys posted on a newsgroup I was on at the time, so I searched the
archives and found it back in 1998. I have used his words, only removing
personal detail. I am sure he wouldn't mind me retelling this account. Obviously
I have no way of validating it, but if true it is amazing, and the detail of the
dream recall understandable to anyone who has had lucid dreams themselves. His
words paint a good picture, so even though it is long, it is worth the read I
think :-).
................................................................................
.........................................

  I dreamed I was driving my '78 Sport Impala during pre-dawn on what is known
locally as Death Alley; Hiway 12 between my hometown and Rio Vista in north
central California. I knew in the dream that I needed to drive with all senses
open and remember paying particular attention to my rear-view mirror and the
vehicle directly behind me. He kept getting too close and I politely slowed on
straight stretches, seeing as how we seemed to have the road pretty much to
ourselves, but he did not take advantage of my overtures. So, I speeded up until
there was quite a distance between us and he was kind enough not to push things
further.

I became aware that I was dreaming as I bent to my right to change cassettes in
my stereo because my stereo was now in the dashboard instead of in the glove
compartment where it was in reality. I had left the dashboard devoid of a radio
after having had one stolen a couple months prior and had gone to considerable
trouble to mount my new stereo in the normally hidden glove compartment. I
nearly woke up when I realized I was dreaming but "steadied" myself through
practiced methods perfected for myself for just such cases and decided to insert
a cassette mentally without the physical motions normally involved and seconds
later
Guns and Roses'  "Use Your Illusions II" blared out on my mental "quad" system's
speakers and I let the music dominate the scene for awhile.

Unsure as to why, I found that I needed to turn left onto a little used road,
requiring me to become aware again of my surroundings. In anticipation of the
turn coming up which would necessitate my hugging the center line and trusting
the vehicle behind me to come around my right side partially on the "shoulder"
of the road, I turned on my left blinker for 3 flashes then turned it off,
looking into the mirror at the vehicle behind. He evidently got the message
because, to my relief, he backed
off even further. At this same time, as I began to decelerate, a line of big rig
trucks came over a small rise a quarter mile ahead travelling in the opposite
direction at high speed. I needed to make a decision at this point; should I
come to a full stop on this dangerous roadway and allow the trucks to pass,
relying on the driver behind to come around properly, or should I brake hard
then turn in front of the approaching trucks that were barreling downhill
towards me at 75kph, but in doing so relieve my worry about being rear-ended by
the driver behind?

Checking once more my rearview mirror and making sure my left hand blinker was
operating full time now, I saw that the driver behind had already anticipated my
move and what was required of him and had started to move to his right to pass
and go on his way. So, I came to a complete stop, allowing the trucks
unobstructed through-way and even remember giving the driver behind me a little
"thank you" wave as he now came around my right hand side. I relaxed, waiting
for the WHOOSH WHOOSH of the trucks to cease so I could make my turn. I recall
making sure that my wheels were still pointed straight ahead as I had learned
years before as a protection against being pushed into the path of oncoming
traffic as a  result of being rear-ended and in retrospect, this probably saved
my and
others' lives&(make note new drivers!!).

I leaned over to turn up the volume of the stereo to 11 on a 10 scale- Axl was
wailing really good on my dream-stereo, and just as I straightened back up to
see if
all the trucks had passed, WHAAAAMMMM!!!! My world went topsy turvy and all I
could think of was "why am I looking at the ceiling?" and what was all those
pretty sparkling things flying around the inside of my car?

I woke up with a start and immediately started speaking into my ever-handy voice
activated micro cassette recorder I always keep on the table next to my bed.
(Glyns Note: This guy was carrying out research into lucid dreams at the time,
which is why it was so handy)

(Fifteen days later):
Well, I got a job to shoot the promo pictures for a new client's advert brochure
and he requested I take some early morning pictures of his company's building to
take
advantage of the golden early light. I agreed, wrote the directions to his
manufacturing plant way out "in the sticks" between my hometown and Rio Vista,
about 45Km to the east off Hiway 12. At the time, I didn't make the mental
connection between my new client's office and the dream from 15 days prior and
made the necessary plans to get up at 4 am the next day with all my camera gear.

So, there I was driving on Hiway 12 in the pre-dawn, just me and this one
vehicle behind me and I suddenly remembered the dream about 5 miles before the
left hand turn I would need to make. Smiling yet more than a little chagrined, I
put in "Use Your Illusions" and turned it up, feeling rather smug that I was now
prepared, if need be, to change reality due to my precognitive dream and indeed,
events proceeded just as in the dream. Double checking my mirrors I saw
absolutely no other vehicle behind me but the one I saw in my dream. This
worried me a little because if events were to play out as foretold, there MUST
be another car behind him; but there wasn't¬ that I could tell as I tried to
look "beyond" the glare of his headlights in the mirror. So, I put on the
blinker,
turned it off, slowed, turned on my blinker again as I checked the mirror and
indeed, the driver behind backed off and started drifting to the right in
anticipation of going around my side. The trucks crested the hill in front of
me- 6 of them in a tight "convoy" formation, going quite fast. I came to a stop,
looking
a final time in my mirror as the guy came around the right side and I gave him a
little wave. There were NO HEADLIGHTS to be seen for a couple of miles behind
me; I SWEAR! Then, feeling as if I'd avoided any problems and making sure my
wheels were still straight ahead, I leaned over to turn up the rockin tunes and,
yep, WHAAAAMMM!!!!

A drunk driver, driving with his headlights off, didn't see me stopped in the
middle of the road and drove  into my back seat at full speed without ever
applying his brakes. This happened 2 seconds before the first truck in line
passed me by and if  I'd turned my wheels in anticipation of the turn, they'd
STILL be picking my teeth out from that truck's front grill! Luckily, since I
did not anticipate the crash, thereby being totally relaxed, I came out of it
unhurt. The seat-back broke
upon impact, throwing me into a reclining position, looking up at the ceiling
and those pretty little sparkly things I saw in my dream was my shattered rear
window flying around the interior of my car, lit by the lights of the passing
trucks.

So, there you have it. Lessons to be learned? Well, you have to keep in mind
that I had no idea exactly *what* it was that hit me in the dream. It could have
been a metorite, a small airplane, I just didn't know. Even if I *had* assumed
that there was a drunken driver out there without headlights at 5 in the
morning, and had gone to the next turn-out and made a U-turn, thereby changing
the parameters of the event, was there any guarantee that I'd have seen the car
as I pulled back around, going across it's path? I just don't know. The real
lesson, I think, is to simply pay more attention to your dreams and "second"
guess yourself when the evidence is overwhelming.

END

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#2552
 	From: Barbara Baumgardner 
Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 10:46 am
Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - Warning long 	threebears4u

  	  	

Hi Glyn,
Wow--That was a fantastic account of a lucid dream and it shows just how
accurate that they can be. I wonder if it ran through the guy's mind to change
his routine somewhat that day (just in case the dream was right). Hummmm
Your story was a lesson for me.....to trust intuition...something I am still
learning.
Years ago I used to get answers in the dream state-I would ask a question before
bed and I would have the answer before morning. Sometimes the answer would come
from a voice and sometimes from a picture. I just recently started getting these
lucid dreams again. I would 'see' the answers to questions I have had in my
mind.
Thank you for sharing,
Barbara

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#2555
 	From: "Eva" 
Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 2:05 pm
Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - Warning long 	k9caninek9

  	  	

I have to say that after having such a dream, I would not have
tempted fate.  It would have been a simple plan to choose a diff
option like driving ahead and doubling back or pulling over early,
letting cars pass, and then getting back on the road.  I find it hard
to believe the average person would choose to do it all just exactly
the same and see if they got clobbered again.
-E

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#2560
 	From: "Glyn" 
Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:13 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream (Part II) 	gebega

  	  	

Hi Eva and all,

> I find it hard to believe the average person would
> choose to do it all just exactly the same and see
> if they got clobbered again. -E

Yes, I must admit I'd feel the same way Eva :-) . I'd probably have scuttled
back  in the opposite direction quicker than a chicken with a scorched tail
(does that count PJ? LOL!:-), but I don't know....perhaps sheer fascination
would have kept me goin. I have no corroboration that this is a true account
I know, but I had no reason to think that he was 'shooting a line' at the
time, and it has always fascinated me.

I spoke to him about it afterward, and just in case you or anyone else is
interested here's a (fairly) short version of what was said. Incidentally, I
don't mention RV, because I was not into it at the time.

...........................................................

Glyn said:
> Wow, that was amazing! You were very lucky, dream or not.
> One of the more interesting ideas to help explain precognition (although
> I'm aware that there must be lots of precog events where this wouldn't
> 'fit'), is that in the dream you would be experiencing your own memory
> of a future event. At the core of this idea is that in some states of
> altered consciousness we can go outside our normal view of time, and
> access our memories in the future; *after* the actual event has taken
> place.
>
> In the same way that our normal memories of past events can be
> distorted, (especially if we have a bad memory anyway), our 'future
> memories' are also subject to distortion, which is why the precognitive
> experience often does not correspond exactly with the real event.
>

'P' said:
> Thank you for that. An interesting idea indeed!

Glyn said:
>There are some parallels that deserve further thought.
> What if you had been killed? Would you have still had the precognitive
> dream? If so, that kind of blows the future memory theory into the
> weeds...unless you're accessing yourself in another time-line; that of
> course is yet another idea, but it starts to get very complicated.

'P' said:
> I have to believe that if I were to have forseen injury or worse in the
> dream I would have tried to take corrective action.

Glyn said:
> Did remembering the dream just before the accident save your life
> because you *ensured* your wheels were pointing straight ahead.....or
> are you sure you would have done so anyway?

'P' said:
Good point; since nothing positive has resulted from this incident (I
lost my car, my camera outfit and was fined for not being insured,
even though it was not my fault) I would like to believe that by
posting this dream and resulting crash that perhaps one of those
reading this who might otherwise have been in the habit of turning
one's wheels before turning would think twice and perhaps save himself
from being pushed into oncoming traffic. If indeed that is the case,
then the dream has served it's purpose to my satisfaction.

Glyn said:
> Why didn't you 'remember' the drunk driver with no lights? He was so
> central to the events, but there was no hint of him in your dream. Was
> it because your first memory of the accident, on which the dream was
> based (when you were lying looking at the shiny glass) didn't contain
> him?

'P' said:
Another good point Glyn. Again, I awoke just after the collision, not
really sure if I'd been hit by another driver, a meteorite or
what...and again, in reality I DID triple-check my mirrors and was
assured by my senses that there was no danger. Perhaps if I HAD
changed things; say, going to the next intersection and making a
Uturn, perhaps I would have been T-boned by the same drunk driver with
no headlights...the timing would have been right for that...so, who
knows.

'L' suggested that I almost deserved what happened by purposely
seeing the parallels but took no action to change it. I can't argue
with that kind of thinking. I knew when I posted it that someone would
suggest it. All I can say is that I took all reasonable precautions
anyone would take to assure myself that there was no danger and lost
the bet.

I would simply say in my defense though that I HAVE had similar
precognitions and indeed *did* change reality saving myself the
foreseen outcome. I've researched, both professionally and personally,
all these types of altered states for more than 25 years and would not
knowingly put myself into jeapardy.
>

Glyn said:
  > The dream corresponded to the actual event remarkably.....possibly
> because you were lucid and you were able to remember it more clearly
> (?) Also it would have helped if your first memory (the one you
> accessed) of the actual event, was clear and not at that time distorted
> by imagination and other associations.
>

'P' said:
The whole thing with precognition is messy to work with...I've yet to
see anything in the media, be it literature or TV or whatever that can
resolve all the issues involved. Some, like "Earth, Final Conflict" do
a reasonable job. Tonite I saw a replay where one of the lines
concerning "precognitive visions" went something like "We Talons
believe the future *can* be foresee and *changed* but we don't tempt
fate". I like that.

----- END ----------------

See Eva, I was boring everyone with thoughts about future memory theory back
then too. LOL!!

Interesting though, however it may have happened. Hope most of you found it
so.

Kind regards,
Glyn

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#2636
 	From: "Linda & John Garvey" 
Date: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:48 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream (Part II) 	linda_g7us

  	  	

> Glyn wrote:
> I was boring everyone with thoughts about future
> memory theory back then too. LOL!!
> Interesting though, however it may have happened.
> Hope most of you found it so.

Glyn,

Boring...?!  Certainly not!   Future memory is a fascinating, important
topic, IMO.  I am glad you posted all this.

Linda G

"The distinction between past, present and future
is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one."
-- Albert Einstein --

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#2596
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - 	docsavagebill

  	  	

Hi Glyn,

Interesting account . Lucid dreams can be amazing.And
here is a case I did pay attention.

  A couple of months ago.. I came to a dental
appointment ..very very sleep deprived having stayed
up late to get a report ready.. I sat in the dental
chair which was in front a a huge window and felt the
warm sun on my face..The dental student gave me
injections of aneasthetic and walked away for a few
minutes. During that time I fell asleep without the
SLIGHTEST hint that I had fallen asleep. I felt the
warmth of the un on my face and saw the light thru my
closed eyelids..but never noticed I had slipped into a
lucid dream..until the dental student came back and
asked me to open my ( dream mouth) ..when I looked at
him..he was the same except that his hair now went
straight up like a cartoon character and he had a wild
crazy shirt on..and a crazy manic look in his eyes.
Evertything else was the same.. At that point I
realized I was actually in a lucid dream and started
having fun looking around at people to see what else
had changed.  I noticed a few other people had changed
shirts etc..but were otherwise the same. I was about
to get out of the "dream chair" but remembered that
the student was probably thinking I had fainted or
something..and would get worried if I stayed
unconcious.so I tryed to "wake up"..but the feeling
was more like being turned inside out..and it was not
comfortable.. when I was awake..the scene was exactly
the same but my "student" not longer looked like a
maniac dentist from Sat. night live.  .. I changed
dental students after that..G

Bill

__________________________________________________
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#2601
 	From: "Eva" 
Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:16 pm
Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - 	k9caninek9

  	  	

This might explain all those times I hit the snooze button, then got
up, brushed my teeth and hair, got in the shower, got dressed, and
then woke up again.  Because the whole thing had been a dream to
start with and I had to do it all over again for real, LOL!
-E

> Interesting account . Lucid dreams can be amazing.And
> here is a case I did pay attention.

----------------------------
Moderator's note: I hate it when that happens. :-)  I used to do that as a kid
constantly.  I would dream I got up and brushed my hair, which got terribly
tangled in bed, or went to the bathroom, and have a seriously lucid (but
non-aware) dream -- utterly real -- then wake up and realize I'd been dreaming,
and this could literally go on 30 times in a row.  I had constant lucid dreams
as a kid, many at will, from an early age so I always related this to that
skill.

One time I was sleepwalking and remembered it as a lucid dream, and was real
surprised to hear everyone else's account of it.  (I was walking and talking and
so forth, but in a wierd way. Hit the toggle button which happened to turn OFF
the lights at the top of the stairs, turned them back on at the bottom for
example. :-)  However, I followed suggestion meekly when commanded.)

I really sympathized with Joe's account in The Stargate Chronicles about his
lucid dream research experiments -- and repeatedly coming back to utterly real
realities, some of which he might have been stuck in (!?) and then realizing
something was wrong and going back to sleep, so he could try waking up again. 
How terrifying.  I'm reminded of an account in a Casteneda book about alternate
realities and two people nearly getting stuck in one.

Sometimes I wonder if people 'accidentally' get shifted into 'alternate
realities' more than we think.  I had a really long period of time when I really
believed that I had done this -- lost my 'home' reality and shifted into an
alternate timeline of sorts -- it just felt wrong, and certainly a lot of "me"
was pretty different than it had been previously, which no easy answer as to
why.

I've known people who have gone on vacation say, and during their trip, were
overcome with that feeling, but didn't know what to do about it, and when
returning home, swore things were 'different' and it seemed like not-quite the
right reality to them, but didn't how to get out again.

Richard Bach talks about that in "ONE".  I dunno though, I totally believed his
far out accounts until he basically admitted much was fiction.  That really blew
me away.  I'm convinced some of my personal experiences happened just because I
*believed* they could, based on his! LOL!  PJ

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#2606
 	From: aeonblueau8008...
Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:40 pm
Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - 	terri8008

  	  	

> Bill writes....
> but the feeling
> was more like being turned inside out..and it was not
> comfortable..

that's exactly what OOBEs feel like to me, and I have often described them as
such,  falling in (or out) then turning inside out. hard to describe, but I
like it or am accustomed to it.
If I take the cellophane wrapper off a pack of cigarettes and turn it inside
out, (it gets, appears, larger but you can still see thru it) that's the
closest I can come to demoing the OOBE from my perspective.

all the best  ~T~*

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#2653
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - 	docsavagebill

  	  	

Hi Terri,

I wondered if it might not be an OBE..but since I did
not get up and view my body in the chair I was not
sure. But htat inside out feeling was VERY definite.

Best Regards,

Bill

> that's exactly what OOBEs feel like to me, and I
> have often described them as
> such,  falling in (or out) then turning inside out.

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#2708
 	From: "Glyn" 
Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:49 am
Subject: RE: Precognitive Lucid Dream - 	gebega

  	  	

Hi Bill,

>  You said.....
>   I tryed to "wake up"..but the feeling
>   was more like being turned inside out..and it was not
>   comfortable.. when I was awake..the scene was exactly
>   the same but my "student" not longer looked like a
>   maniac dentist from Sat. night live.  .. I changed
>   dental students after that..G

   Yikes! I hate going to the dentist, and something like that happening to
me wouldn't improve things one little bit! :-). Yes, dentists can look a bit
manic I think...especially when masked up and peering down at you with a
glint in their eye and a hypo poised threateningly... If there are any
dentists out there I'm only kidding.;-).

   I've never had a lucid dream while 'up and about' Bill, because all mine
have happened when I've been in bed or on the couch. I think that one of
yours must be quite unusual because of that. Have you had many of those?

   I'm sure you'll agree that this type of dream (the pre-lucid stage
especially) seems so very real that if a person hadn't had such an
experience before, and didn't end up realising they were dreaming, then it
is conceivable that they could think it was 'really' real. Even moreso if
there was a 'seamless' transition between awake/asleep/awake, the only
difference being that the dream 'characters' were no longer there; as if
they had suddenly disappeared or gone away.

   I wonder how many people have that kind of dream while sleep-walking too?
I've never heard of that actually, but it wouldn't surprise me. Some people
may even go through life convinced of the reality of something that didn't
happen outside their own minds.

   BTW Bill, I must say that I deeply respect and admire anyone that can
actually fall asleep naturally in a dentist's chair. My hero! LOL!!

   Kind thoughts,
   Glyn

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#2721
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:57 pm
Subject: RE: Dental Lucid dream 	docsavagebill

  	  	

Hi Glyn,

Thank you very much...but I was terribly tired. And I
did mantra meditation while relaxing with my eyes
closed. . I never had a "waking" lucid dream like that
again in my life..where I never noticed going to sleep
and slipping into an inner world that so exactly
matched the outer. It was such a joyful rush when I
realized my state. I wanted to stay and play..but
figured the dentist would think I had a stroke or
something...G It was also interesting that the
inside/out feeling when conciously waking up was what
Terri identified with an OBE..