pjrv : Messages : 2929-2933 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2929?)

 00:27:58

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------

#2929
 	From: James Phillip Turpin 
Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 2:23 am
Subject: psychological hang-ups 	james_p_turpin

  	  	

I'm a pretty inexperienced viewer, but that is not my worse problem.
There are other psi techniques that I know.  I hope you don't consider
this off topic.  I want to discuss my current psychological hang-up
associated with psi, not really just the technique.  But since the
technique is the context, I think I should detail it.

I recalled a few days ago that I know a methodology for answering
binary questions which has never failed me on the few occaions that I
have used it.  My brother got it from a book, and he gave me the book to
read.  My brother had so much confidence in the technique at one
point that he actually used it in on multiple choice college
entrance exams, and although he didn't get prefect scores, he did well
enough to get into college.

The way it works is that you hold a pendulum (or any sort of weight on a
string or chain) in a particular awkard grip so that your autonomic
nervous system can easily control the motion of the pendulum.  You then
associate four different motions with 'yes', 'no', 'don't know', and
'won't tell', by tasking the phrases.  Then you are free to ask yes/no
questions and get answers via your autonomic nervous system.  And it is
_very_ obvious whether it is your automic nervous system in charge, by the
quality of the hand motion being jerky rather than smooth.

Before I (and probably my brother as well) did not think of it as a
psychic technique, but just a method of accessing the subconscious.  It
was mostly just a parlor game.

The other day I put two and two together and realized that if this
technique can access subconscious data, and the subconscious has psi
ability, then this method can be used as a psi technique.

Anyway, I (consciously) want to use this technique for the
sort of things that one might use ARV for, using similar protocol.  (The
protocol wouldn't be identical because this technique gives yes/no answers
directly rather descriptions & sketches).

I did one test run, on the outcome of a sporting event.  For about the
first 3 seconds I got an 'I don't know' response, which then changed to a
'yes'.  I gather that it took that much time to access the information.
Anyway, it turned out to be the right answer, and I haven't been able to
bring myself to use the technique since.  I'm a little scared that it
won't work, and a little scared that it will work.  (But I _do_ want it to
work.)  But I don't understand why my fear rather than my curiosity is an
overriding factor.

The thing is, this technique is _supposed_to_ pad against information
that you can't handle by using the "won't tell" response.  And it also
seemed vastly superior to ARV.

Back when I believed that this technique was not really psychic, people
told me that such techniques could open one up to 'other forces'.  Maybe
that's what I'm really afraid of (even though I don't see how it could be
personally dangerousto me).

Maybe its just a vague fear of the unknown.

When I was very ill once, I had myoclonic (spelling?) seizures, associated
with intense pain.  Maybe that has implanted a fear of the sort of
autonomic functioning required to use this technique.

I really don't understand what it is that's stopping me.  I'm only
assuming its fear.  Whatever it is, its somewaht subconscious.  It's
happening more by self sabotage - failure to take necessary steps to
prepare, such as by buying newspapers to aid tasking and making time -
than by conscious decision to not do it.  I think this illustrates a very
common problem with psi, that without understanding why or even
consciously admitting it, people simply refuse to do psi, or at least
refuse to do it correctly to realize its full potential.

Any thoughts or suggestions?  Especially suggestions.   ;)

James

Reply | Forward
	
#2932
 	From: "pjgaenir" 
Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 11:20 am
Subject: Re: psychological hang-ups 	pjgaenir

  	  	

Hi James,

First I want to thank you for being brave enough to discuss (let
alone bring up) this kind of topic.

I personally consider these kind of issues (psychological) to be some
of the most important issues for developing psi functioning. They are
usually ignored.  And it seems most folks are either oblivious or in
denial, or perhaps think their small measure of success means a
subject like 'fear of psi' can't apply to them or they wouldn't have
what success they do.

Or maybe they're right and they have none of it, but the psychology
angle of psi research, most anyone I've talked with in this regard,
would have a hard time believing that.  So would I.  I believe that
innately, we are powerful creatures who would seem nearly godlike if
all our abilities were manifest at their full ability.  I tend to
think the difference between our full ability and whatever we have is
a matter of what we psychologically allow for ourselves, although
some of that may be on fairly deep levels.

-----

Joe McMoneagle, in the RV Oasis interviews last year, commenting on
psychology in viewing:

Q: How much of `psi talent' do you think is really a matter of
psychology allowing/accepting psi?

Joe: All of it. That comes from "knowing" it's real, not believing it
to be so.

And commenting directly on the subject of 'fear of psi':

Q: There's been talk about subconscious "fear of psi" relating to the
common decline-effect, and contributing to why so few end up `world-
class' remote viewers like yourself. What do you think?  Is there
really such culture-wide fear of psi?  Do you think people realize
they've got it?  (Many viewers discussing it online say it's not a
problem for them.)  If you think this is an issue, how would you
suggest viewers address dealing with this?

Joe: If someone says that this is not a problem for them - then I
would say they have never communicated with their unconscious mind.
It's a major issue, and one that never goes away. It's a fear that's
not just culture wide, it's pervasive in all cultures. Even those
that have practitioners of PSI have fear of it. It's speaks to the
dark side for most. It's an uncomfortable window to things
we "shouldn't have access to." There are no suggestions for dealing
with it -- since there is no way of truly conquering it. It's one
more battle that's constantly waged in doing RV -- a battle you
sometimes win and sometimes don't.

If you haven't read the interviews, don't miss 'em:
http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/pjrv_interviews.cfm

-----

In research over the years this has been acknowledged pretty
generally as a major issue.  Dr. Charles T. Tart, a psychologist who
was a consultant in the place/time of some of the STAR GATE programs,
has at least one article online about it... Ah here it
is, 'Acknowledging and Dealing With the Fear of Psi':
http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=35

As a last quote-note, the topic of dowsing was addressed in Joe's
interviews too:

Q: Have you ever heard of the military trying dowsing or other psi
outside of "RV"?  If so, what were the results, do you know?   If
they were reasonable, why didn't it "stick"?

Joe: Dowsing was used a lot in the unit actually. In fact, I was
trained to dowse by a Ms. Francis Farelley while working at SRI-
International -- she was one of the best dowsers in America at the
time.  A platoon of Marines were trained to dowse for booby traps and
tunnels in Vietnam and my understanding (based on what I read about
the results) was they were able to demonstrate a significant
reduction in wounded in action, and effectiveness in searches within
NVA controlled villages.  Why it didn't stick is easy to ascertain --
it wasn't institutionalized. In reviewing military history, one can
find numerous areas where things are not institutionalized that work
very well. Sniper units trained for WWI, WWII, and Korea were
discontinued after each of those conflicts even though they were
considered to be quite successful. They were probably discontinued
because they were not viewed as morally acceptable (much like RV I
suppose.) But, subsequent to Vietnam, they have been
institutionalized.  Eventually, it is my hope that RV, dowsing, and
other paranormal practices will be institutionalized at some time in
the future. When, would be anyone's guess.

-----

> There are other psi techniques that I know. I hope you don't
consider this off topic.

Not at all off topic.  You notice the subtitle of this group
is 'practical psi'.  The fact is that long term viewers often do
quite a decent amount of other psi practices either spontaneously or
deliberately, including pendulum dowsing which you described. The
list is open to other types of psi and to indirectly related topics
such as meditation for example.  It just doesn't get a lot of talk in
those areas.

Which is really rather funny, in a way, I have all kinds of people
that PEM me about OBEs and experiences during meditation and I wish I
could share them with each other, but I guess they're not comfortable
sharing with the list at large.  Probably they don't realize there
are others who'd be right up that alley.

Remote viewing is just a form of psychic functioning after all.
There are other forms. The psi part is human-wide.  The form (and
within that, the method) is just a reduction of focus-size, to
concentrate intent in a certain way.  I find dowsing just as
interesting as RV.

My personal goal for this group (which is usually more wishful
thinking than reality :-)) is for some discussion about the personal
stuff, experiences and issues, the overall development of people
working on developing psi ability.  There are after all lots of other
sources of how-to do psi, or what's going on in the world of psi.  To
me, the most important resource in discussion is whatever isn't
addressed elsewhere and is most needed, and to me, that means the raw-
ly honest stuff that is usually going to get into stuff either
experiential or psychological.

When RV got pulled out of the magical/shamanic areas to 'clean it up'
from various other beliefs outside psi, it developed a few drawbacks
I think, as there were certain benefits to those models psi was
pursued within, despite their other problems.  People in RV often are
not making a "personal development" curve life-wide.  Sometimes they
are doing nothing but RV, and even that, they assign little focus on
besides fun and developing skill.  I think this tends to either limit
results, or eventually, the side-effects tend to make them a bit
unbalanced, as they haven't developed strengths and discipline in
other areas.

----

> Before I (and probably my brother as well) did not think of it
> as a psychic technique, but just a method of accessing the
> subconscious. It was mostly just a parlor game. The other day
> I put two and two together and realized that if this technique
> can access subconscious data, and the subconscious has psi
> ability, then this method can be used as a psi technique.

Exactly, and often is.  Isn't it funny though how that slight shift
in concept so changes your relationship to it.

It's kind of like in viewing, it's common for people fairly new to it
to do very well, but and after some time (duration varies), suddenly
they're worse, and it takes awhile to get back to where they were.
It's the psychology finally realizing it's REAL that seems to be
behind the common 'decline effect'.  When (or if, or how much%) that
is compensated for depends on a lot of factors.

> I did one test run, on the outcome of a sporting event. For about
> the first 3 seconds I got an 'I don't know' response, which then
> changed to a 'yes'. I gather that it took that much time to access
> the information. Anyway, it turned out to be the right answer,
> and I haven't been able to bring myself to use the technique since.
> I'm a little scared that it won't work, and a little scared that
> it will work. (But I _do_ want it to work.) But I don't understand
> why my fear rather than my curiosity is an overriding factor.

I haven't got the answers on why.  I do suspect though, from working
with hypnosis on myself and others for a long time, that if ten
people encounter something, and three are disinterested, and two
really are interested but are too busy for it, and three are really
into it, and two say they actually feel, when they think about it, a
bit uncomfortable or even afraid of it, though they love the idea --
it is just as likely that the first five have fear as the last two,
and it is just as likely that the three 'into it' do as well but do
not as quickly absorb to the subconscious level what is going on, and
so will be happy-go-lucky with it for awhile, until they do.  At
which point they will suddenly be disinterested, or too busy, or feel
resistance.

What I'm getting at is, I consider that you are honest with yourself
and aware of yourself, and open with others, which is why you noticed
it, recognized it, and are able to volunteer it here.  But there are
lots of others who at root have the same issues but project them onto
something else.  You're not the lone ranger on this, but chances are
in the RV world you might start feeling like it, since the usual
response I get when I bring up the fear-of-psi topic is that people
think it's just not a problem for them at all.  Even people actively
practicing psi sometimes choose to do so in ways that I see as a
direct result of their fear of psi.

> Back when I believed that this technique was not really psychic,
> people told me that such techniques could open one up to 'other
> forces'. Maybe that's what I'm really afraid of (even though I
> don't see how it could be personally dangerousto me).

Well, if your answer inside your own head to those comments was, "It
is just subconscious," then realizing your subconscious can "open up
to" psi information could spark that response I suppose.

The fact is that psi is the great unknown, it is the universe and
more.  Realizing we can open up to psi is more than a
little "Pandora's Box" in action.  I think it is normal for someone
who fully realizes this (down to the gut level) right off the bat, to
feel a huge caution, one that might even be strong enough to be fear.

> Maybe its just a vague fear of the unknown.

Sounds like a pretty specific fear of the unknown to me.
But 'unknown' is a small word to cover everything implied by psychic
functioning.

> When I was very ill once, I had myoclonic (spelling?) seizures,
> associated with intense pain. Maybe that has implanted a fear of
> the sort of autonomic functioning required to use this technique.

Yikes.  Most severe pain and severe fear manifests later as a fear-of-
fear.  The fear of having the FEAR again is actually stronger than
the fear of the pain, if that makes sense. Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder (PTSD) for severe cases (like combat vets and severe injury
events etc.) tends to contain a good deal of this.

> Whatever it is, its somewaht subconscious. It's happening more
> by self sabotage - failure to take necessary steps to prepare,
> such as by buying newspapers to aid tasking and making time -
> than by conscious decision to not do it. I think this
> illustrates a very common problem with psi, that without
> understanding why or even consciously admitting it, people
> simply refuse to do psi, or at least refuse to do it correctly
> to realize its full potential.

I agree completely.  The difference seems to be that you are able to
realize this shortly into it and some people never do.

----

> Any thoughts or suggestions? Especially suggestions. ;)

Well I'm no expert on the cure given I have plenty of the symptoms
myself.  But I can suggest things I work on, that might be of value
to you too.

The first is, there are a variety of 'active meditations' - basically
visualizations which are 'led by intuition and imagination', which
means a "conscious dreaming" technique, such as archetype
meditations.  It's best to learn and practice them on positive issues
you have no problem with, or like your sun and moon astrologically or
something, until you're comfortable letting these happen (so it's
more subconscious driven imagination than conscious will).  But once
you get them down, you can do these directly on 'fear of psi' if you
like and it's pretty interesting.  Journalize afterward what happened
in the meditation.  They may all be radically different, they are
very spontaneous and always unqiue experiences.

If you go to the RV Oasis archives on Firedocs, enter in the title-
keywords-search field 'fear of failure'; also 'fear of psi'; for some
earlier posts on these topics in the group.  Search on 'archetype'
for a long post where I explained how the meditations mentioned are
done.  Archives:
http://www.firedocs.com/archives/Archives_RVOasisPJRV2.cfm

You can also ask for a dream to both explain to you, and to
help 'vent' some of, any fear of psi you may hold, and tell yourself
you want to remember it.  Write down any dream you remember no matter
how offbeat or seemingly unrelated. If you don't often remember your
dreams, do this until you finally do remember one.

You might also consider planning in advance (and sticking to that
limit) what you're going to dowse.  Rather than sporting events, try
other targets, different sorts.  Make a list and see if you think you
might be more open to one kind of target than another.  Work where
you are and with what you can and I think that helps, and gradually
you can expand your horizons.

Be aware that a lot of "indirect" psychological associations can come
into things based on the target types.  For example, issues with
money can affect remote viewing for things that can be bet on or won.
Issues with theology can affect remote viewing esoteric targets.

Also, you might try dowsing blind, which puts it more in an RV
protocol, make about 60 targets and put them in envelopes, and blind-
dowse on them.  Then open them up to see what they are and write your
answer on them.  In the dowsing world it is not normally done blind,
but when dowsing is done within the RV process, it is.  I don't know
how or if this applies to the fear of psi issue, it's just a note.

Anyway, I'm glad you brought this up.  I consider it both relevant
and important to most viewers, but there's a fairly small number who
openly admit that this might be an issue.  If you decide to do any of
the conscious dreaming meds, or dreamwork, I'd be interested to know
how it goes for you if you want to share.

Regards,
PJ

Reply | Forward
	
#2933
 	From: Barbara Baumgardner 
Date: Mon Apr 7, 2003 9:39 am
Subject: Re: psychological hang-ups 	threebears4u

  	  	

Hi Jim,
I am going to reply to this because in doing so I may help you or someone else
out there.  I grew up very psychic in a non supportive home. I was loved, but I
was told I was imagining things. Psi was discouraged. As I grew I became more
aware of my Psi and discovered abilities that I did not know anything about
except that they were there when I needed them. So here, intent was everything,
just like in RV. If you wish to grow in Psi and use it, don't be afraid of
it--it is a part of you like your arm, and it won't hurt you, but also be aware
that as you allow your psi to surface that you may come to know things that you
wish you didn't, like the impending 'death' of a loved one, or other things like
that. The information is not discrimanatory--you become open to all of it.
Understanding Psi and understanding how to work it, as well as coming to terms
with your fears of what you may find out takes work, and what I said about being
'safe'--always work for the good of all and you will always be safe with psi.
Soooooooo, have fun, and come out of the closet with you psi. Let it grow and
see what happens.
As far as the pendulum thing goes, if you like that--great, but I would not get
on an Rv board and say Psi is better than RV.  And, if a Pendulum will just give
you a yes, no , or maybe,   RV will give you a lot more than that, so I am  +
PEACEFULLY + :)disagreeing with you.   In my opinion they they both work
together--at least for me they do, because I have never been formally trained in
RV.  However, training is important, even if you are a natural, and you would
like to be the best that you can be with respect to RV.  Soooooooo  having said
that, I will tell you I ordered some training tapes so that I can learn more
about RV, and hopefully do better.
I also recommand that you go to firedocs.com and download the manual and start
there, and join farview and do a target at least twice a month. I will tell you
like I was told the first time someone the boards gave me a target and I said -
"What do you want me to do with these numbers?"  and I was told   'Just to let
my mind 'Go There'.   Just TRY it and see what happens.
Go ahead and have fun with it. There are also tapes for sale on ebay--enter
remote viewing and check it out.
BTW,  I encourage you very much to put the pendulum aside for awhile ( you have
all ready mastered that anyway ) and work with the energy of your hands in
dowseing. If you have never worked with energy before, go to a gem and mineral
store and buy yourself some crystals and a book on them and start discovering
how the energy of one stone is different from another. Once you can do that,
then you can move on to sending energy and feeling energy--as in dowseing. I
have never been trained in any of this--  but this works i watched as someone
else did this andi tried it and found that I could do it too.. I also use
dowsing in Rv---I use my hands. Becoming familiar with energies can only help
you in RV you can sense the energy of a target, and it helps you to hone in
where you want to go. Go for it.
Kind Regards,
Barb

pjrv : Messages : 2930-2945 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2930?)

 00:28:45

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------

#2930
 	From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." 
Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 9:16 am
Subject: Re: psychological hang-ups 	hstearnsjr

  	  	

Hi,

I found this works very well for me also.  The movements are called
"ideomotor responses".
Dowsing uses the same effect.  It's useful for more than "yes/no"
answers, for example map dowsing,
where the pendulum will move to the spot of interest on a map, or it can
be used to find a lost object-- just ask it
to swing in the direction from where you are to where the object is and
  if you move and do it again, the
directions can be triangulated to where they cross.  Similarly, I found
it works well on lottery forms
(only I use a lightly held pencil for that one).

P.S a year long experiment I did with lotto resulted in a 5 times better
than chance winnings.  Not a lot of
money, but it proved that it works :-). Sometimes, I'd get all or most
numbers "right" but shifted left, right etc.
on the form. Attempting to compensate was futile.  I guess my
subconscious saying "you're not ready for that yet".

After a while, you can dispense with the pendulum and just "feel" for
the warm spot or direction.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

Reply | Forward
	
#2945
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: dowsing 	docsavagebill

  	  	

Hi Hoyt,

Good going! That's a significant improvement over
chance. You should try it with horse racing or sports
betting. They pay off much better for low odds betting
( 2:1, 3:1, etc) over chance. Lotto doesn't return a
very good proportion to the low odds cards. Usually
about 1/2 the $ goes to the state and most of the rest
goes for the big long shot payoffs.

  I like to do hand dowsing myself. I mark yes and no
on two sides of a card and put a pin thru it and spin
it.. and then feel which side is hot. Then spin again
and generally do 4-6 trials. I think it may work even
better if another person keeps track of wins and
losses so your don't know if your picks match up.

  BTW.. I've never heard if dowsing really works better
if there is formal feedback?? Most people don't seem
to bother with feedback for associative dowsing.

Best Regards,

Bill