pjrv : Messages : 1797-1818 of 4038
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#1797
 	From: "PJ Gaenir " 
Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 10:50 pm
Subject: RV Angst / Monitors 	dennanm
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Hi you guys.

You know me, the virgo queen of RV angst.  When I'm not pitching a
fit about my sessions not being perfect enough, it's either because
I'm not practicing, or because I'm busy pitching 101 little fits
through a session at that moment.

I thought I was getting better about all this though.  Though not
perfect, for some time my practice sessions had been fairly normal in
terms of my state of mind.

Recently I decided I really wanted to find someone to practice with.
So I've been doing some practice sessions for someone else.

It's been rather interesting.  First off, every ideogram is totally
new.  I mean I haven't a flippin' clue.  Today only made an exception
to be familiar enough in one regard, while having another familiar
element that completely contradicted the first one, just to be
ridiculously confusing.  I am wondering if the same target, with a
different tasker, would ever come through any differently in regards
to the ideogram?  I suppose that is impossible to test.

Secondly, I find that if someone who knows the target is monitoring
me in my practice session, it takes my single-point angst (will the
session be good enough), and instead applies it to every single word
being a 'judgement' on the other person's part.  I think if we'd done
it properly double blind, I wouldn't have felt like that.  But we
didn't, so I had this mega psyche case about it.

This mostly resulted in a completely continuing lack of any target
contact, a great deal of annoyance on my part, and eventually
annoying the monitor too.  Sigh.

Part of me really wants to slither off into a dark corner and
practice quietly until I am Appropriately Omniscient.  Another part
of me really wants some sense of community/congregation about it, so
I'm not the Lone Ranger and all.

For the left-brain folks out there, I am curious, if you've done
monitored sessions both doubleblind and monitor frontloaded, did you
react any differently in the session when the monitor knew the
target?

Do monitored sessions add a performance anxiety rather than a greater
ability to let go?

Does it depend on how well you know the monitor?

Other than training, I have never done anything but solo sessions.
So I really don't know how people normally react to that.  Is it no
big deal to anybody else?

PJ

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#1801
 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:35 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	docsavagebill
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Hi PJ,

Most of my monitored sessions were done at Pru's
center during one weekend. But I did better at that
time than usually on my own. However, there was a lot
of joking and continuous efforts by Pru ( although not
always the other monitor) to lower stress and
expectations. Laughter,  tongue in cheek jokes etc,
are all good ways to break down that stress level and
pressure for performance. The person doing the
monitoring makes  a huge difference. I much prefer a
monitor that is just a comfortable friendly helper,
and I am in control. Others might prefer something
else.

Best Regards,

Bill

----------------------------
Moderator's note: Well training is sort of a situation all its own (the
in-person aspect being strongest of course).  The monitor was good in my case,
it was my own reaction I found interesting. -- PJ

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#1802
 	From: "intuitwolf " 
Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:59 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	intuitwolf
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> I am wondering if the same target, with a
> different tasker, would ever come through any differently in regards
> to the ideogram?

I've had one target that I've been tasked with by three different
people over the course of three years. Every time the ideogram had
similiarities, but my ideograms are always different so it wasn't
identical by any means. But it had the same curving aspect in all three.

> Secondly, I find that if someone who knows the target is monitoring
> me in my practice session, it takes my single-point angst (will the
> session be good enough), and instead applies it to every single word
> being a 'judgement' on the other person's part.

Yeah, I think that's probably a problem for anyone who is being
monitored by someone who knows the target. If it had been double blind
you probably would have still experienced some of that just because
you aren't used to being monitored.

> This mostly resulted in a completely continuing lack of any target
> contact, a great deal of annoyance on my part

If the monitor is overly intrusive in the session (even when double
blind) it can still be tremendously irritating and distracting rather
than helpful. I think being a good monitor is a fine art that takes as
much practice as remote viewing.

> For the left-brain folks out there, I am curious, if you've done
> monitored sessions both doubleblind and monitor frontloaded, did you
> react any differently in the session when the monitor knew the
> target?

Yes, it's almost like reverting to a childhood state where you were
learning to read and had to read in class and were really anxious
about making mistakes. The only thing to do in those cases is to think
of it as good training for that part of self that doesn't like to make
mistakes. It's easier to show one of your worst sessions *after the
fact* when you can move into intellectual mode and discuss the fine
points of what set you off track, than it is to have someone sitting
there watching the train wreck while it happens and you're in a more
vulnerable subconscious-exposed mind set. :-)

> Do monitored sessions add a performance anxiety rather than a greater
> ability to let go?

I think having a monitor that is really good and knows how to stay out
of the way and only step in at appropriate moments might be great -
but I've never had a good one that I could work with on an ongoing
basis so I wouldn't really know. But I did have my husband monitor me
a few times and he was actually very good at only stepping in at just
the right moment (usually only once or twice). We have plans to do
more of this once he graduates this Spring and we can have our life back.

> Does it depend on how well you know the monitor?

Probably; but I'd bet that Bill Ray or Mel could monitor just about
anyone and create a measure of feeling comfortable and safe in the
process.

Shelia

-------------------------
Moderator's note: Thanks.  I just wondered.  My monitor was actually really
great in fact.  It was me that overreacted to the process, so I just wondered if
others have as well. -- PJ

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#1814
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Sat Dec 21, 2002 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	k9caninek9
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LOL, this reminds me of a dream I had last night.  I dreamt I was
monitoring someone and there was a huge long break where the viewer
was stuck but for the life of me, I couldn't think of one single
question to help.  Finally I thought of one and the viewer gave a
single word response and then there was another huge long break and I
still couldn't think.  It went on that way for a long time with me
squirming as the monitor until finally I got lucid enough to realize
it was a dream.  Whew!  Maybe the lesson was to keep a page of
questions handy when you are the monitor!
-E

------------------------------
Moderator's note: Sounds like the monitor's nightmare of getting PJ as a viewer.
LOL! PJ

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#1816
 	From: "intuitwolf " 
Date: Sat Dec 21, 2002 9:24 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	intuitwolf
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> I just wondered.  My monitor was actually really great
> in fact.  It was me that overreacted to the process, so
> I just wondered if others have as well. -- PJ

I have monitored three students who were overly nervous when working
with Paul -- they perceived him as the authority figure. Although they
said they were more relaxed with me, their sessions were just as good
when they worked with Paul. So, maybe sometimes even that tension can
work for you - possibly keeping the analytical mind busy?

Shelia

--------------------
Moderator's note: Actually, fear of public humiliation *usually* makes me do
quite well as a survival response.  I didn't really have any 'authority' issue
with the monitor in this case though.  But it sure did drag my left brain up to
the surface.  I've thought about it a bit now.  I think anything that relates to
others looking in on me springs a well-developed "I'm rational and objective"
attitude -- which is the worst possible thing for the RV process of course. :-) 
It always comes down to ego!  Sigh.  PJ

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#1803
 	From: Dee Leslie 
Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:40 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	myratadee
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Hi PJ,

I have done many sessions solo and with a monitor both
blind and monitor informed.  My first few sessions
with a monitor were full of the angst you described -
the ego kicks in and 'will I be good enough'
definitely does try to run with it for a while.  But
after a while, it didn't seem to matter who was
monitoring me, I just went into the zone and wrote
away.

There are problems with double blind - it can really
turn into a bunch of laughter after the target is
disclosed.  In one session, I was moved 20 feet above
the target, definitely noticed different elements and
kept on describing.  There was nothing wrong with the
data, but the target was a salt shaker!  I described
the inside and the contents, but the move to 20 feet
above had me describing the roof of the house, which I
gloriously tagged as the top of the structure I was
viewing.  It was quite a kick!  I find that I don't
get frustrated anymore about my data - I simply task
myself with understanding what went on in the session
and how I felt.  This helps me to understand what the
feeling means the next time.

I teach SRV and I have noticed that many of the new
viewers get there faster.  So, the struggle is no
longer getting someone to the target, but teaching
them how to get all of the data on paper.

Sorry, strayed just a bit.

Anyway, the changing ideograms could be due to the new
energy - I teach that the monitor generally 'goes to
the target' with the viewer - so it helps to
strengthen the signal.  What might help you to keep
your ideograms pure is to do a few practice ideogram
pages right before meditating and viewing.  It keeps
the subconscious mind focused on the task.

Another ideogram comment - pay attention to these new
ones.  You could be developing a more advanced code
for yourself.  Each of the viewers I know ends up with
a few new ones that are just their own.  For example,
and upside down subject ideogram for one person
indicates an ET subject (SRV teaches loops).  For me,
my ideograms become more complex, say if a subject is
inside a structure, I may draw both of them in one.
So, put the frustration aside and focus on your
subconsious.  You may want to ask your monitor to
describe what symbol is in his/her head for each of
the categories - may make sense.

Having the monitor focusing on the target (even when
blind, the intention of the monitor is to simply focus
on the target) just as it is, is very important.  I
recently had experience with someone who decided to
'help me out' by singing a KISS song in his head (the
target was of a KISS concert).  Since I don't know
KISS songs by name, that was no help at all.  I did
fine with the target but the depth was missing because
the monitor was 'doing something else'.  Having the
monitor get quiet, such as with meditation for a few
minutes before the session, does enhance target
contact.

The 'newness' of a monitor generally takes a session
together to help each of you learn the other's style.
After that, the experience only gets better.  I like
solo's and monitored sessions.  If you like, I'd be
happy to connect with you for a session or two as a
monitor.

So, hope I wasn't too long winded.  I have been
reading the recents posts trying to catch up.  Haven't
been part of the group for quite some time.

Dee Leslie

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#1818
 	From: "Eva " 
Date: Sat Dec 21, 2002 8:39 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	k9caninek9
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I haven't done many monitored sessions, but I vastly prefer the
monitor to be blind.  Otherwise, I second guess everything he/she
says.  Sometimes I am wrong, but sometimes I am right as well.  I
think it's impossible for a monitor to act exactly the same informed
as blind.  Sure, you can keep a poker face, but emotions will float
in the ether and decisions on questions will be influenced.  For
instance as a monitor, you probably wouldn't knowingly ask for more
data on an aspect you knew to be wrong.
-E

------------------------
Moderator's note: The last point is really the biggest for me. -- PJ

pjrv : Messages : 1798-1819 of 4038
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#1798
 	From: "Mary Ashley" 
Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:00 am
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	maryladyoflight
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Hi PJ,

Initially I was terrified when I did targets with Gene as my Monitor.. It
wasn't quite so bad with Bill, "Liam".. However both guys were absolutely
brilliant and very supportive of my stumblings and severe lack of
confidence.. I was astonished just how supportive they were. It is
something I did my best to emulate, with all my students. :)

There is the need to have or instill confidence, assurance, trust and a
sense of safety. There are certain people I would never take a target from
on a casual level.  For operational ones, where I potentially had issues
with the monitor, as in life, I can lock myself into an entirely different
mindset.

Next time, when you feel yourself going into the neg spiral.. ask yourself
this.. "What results on the target would I get if I didn't think/feel like
this?"

See how that helps. :))

Hugs,

MaryA

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#1805
 	From: aeonblueau8008...
Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	terri8008
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Well, first off if your not used to a monitor, all of this is totally strange
to you, foreign, don't fit, doesn't feel comfortable. Takes some getting used
to. A lot.

PJ>>>>It's been rather interesting.  First off, every ideogram is totally
new.  I mean I haven't a flippin' clue.  Today only made an exception
to be familiar enough in one regard, while having another familiar
element that completely contradicted the first one, just to be
ridiculously confusing.

Bit confused, what are you talking about or you lost me.
IMO everything is different in every session, yeah and your clueless.
Are you saying you are familiar or habitual with ideograms?

  PJ>>>>I am wondering if the same target, with a
different tasker, would ever come through any differently in regards
to the ideogram?  I suppose that is impossible to test.

Why is that impossible to test? and yeah of course it could come thru
differently. Totally, you can be clueless, you should be at any rate.

PJ>>>>Secondly, I find that if someone who knows the target is monitoring
me in my practice session, it takes my single-point angst (will the
session be good enough)

well, drop that, drop the ego. your in this for you, not your monitor nor
anything else. be true to your self first, discard everything else, not
meaning to sound flippant, but your after yourself, and you know when your
on.
BTW.. how do you now your monitor knows the target??? you shouldn't.. your
blind to the whole ball of wax. Your the viewer your not in control and don't
try to be.
I dunno, sortta sounds like you need to find someone who knows what they are
doing... or you would 't be having all the Q's.
I actually only know/of 3 possible monitors . . . . .

PJ>>>>>, and instead applies it to every single word
being a 'judgement' on the other person's part.  I think if we'd done
it properly double blind, I wouldn't have felt like that.  But we
didn't, so I had this mega psyche case about it.

well, I guess so.
A viewer can't control every aspect.That's not the viewers hat.
Judgement.. nasty word.. hang ups on hang ups.
Shouldn't even cross a viewers mind.

PJ>>>>>This mostly resulted in a completely continuing lack of any target
contact, a great deal of annoyance on my part, and eventually
annoying the monitor too.  Sigh.

I wouldn't even say you were in session, any sort of session.

PJ>>>>Part of me really wants to slither off into a dark corner and
practice quietly until I am Appropriately Omniscient.

This life or next.

PJ>>>>>>>Another part
of me really wants some sense of community/congregation about it, so
I'm not the Lone Ranger and all.For the left-brain folks out there, I am
curious, if you've done
monitored sessions both doubleblind and monitor frontloaded, did you
react any differently in the session when the monitor knew the
target?

No.

PJ>>>>>>Do monitored sessions add a performance anxiety rather than a greater
ability to let go?

heck no .. the better the monitor the better the session
(I lost the " I wan't to be the best" a loooooooooong time ago)
(so should you)
(It's a foot in the door)
(the next door you can try to be the best)

PJ>>>>>>>>>>Does it depend on how well you know the monitor?

Yeeeeeah thats a big plus point IMO/experience. How well I know and what I
trust.

PJ>>>>Other than training, I have never done anything but solo sessions.
So I really don't know how people normally react to that.  Is it no
big deal to anybody else?

It's no big deal and it's a gigantic deal.
Of course it's horridly uncomfortable in the begining, for one thing the
monitor keeps you 'awake' or conscious or focused, quite often theres a neg
reaction to this.
You working PJ's RV and that dosen't include a monitor/structure as far as I
can tell, your a solo. I work Terri ERV and that includes a monitor and not
just somone off the street with a quick run down. There's quite a delicat
touch to monitoring.. a lost art i'm afraid. You trust your monitor no
questions asked.. if you have questions don't even bother, coz when you go
into monitored session, your basically in the monitors handds, may as well be
the best.

Yes, it feels weird when you are first live monitored.
The same tgt, via the same or different taskers or monitors can or will come
thru differently and you will be clueless. It's not the tasking or monitor..
it's you.
Well, that describes a viewer - clueless..
That's RVing...
RVing is not for identifying or labeling.. not as I know it.. or is that the
new breed.
You expect to know and identify a site as soon as you 'open' to it?
Give it up.. that's not RV.

Your in this for you ( not the monitor not the tasker), after you discard all
the considerations and just deal with what you get of target. then your on.
I think your dealing with too too much left brain.. considerations.
You'll never wear all hats IMO in session..

All the best  ~~Terri

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#1808
 	From: "Jason S. Shapiro" 
Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:05 pm
Subject: Haiku Contest 	fetik3
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I wanted to send this to the list earlier, but I've been
SWAMPED with final exams.  In any case, I just wanted
to thank PJ for putting on this great contest :)  It was an
absolute delight to see the creativity of the members of
this list!

So, thank you PJ for coming up with idea, and thanks to
everyone who participated :)

-Jason

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#1811
 	From: Rfjuice...
Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:43 am
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	rfjuice2000
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> Do monitored sessions add a performance anxiety
> rather than a greater ability to let go?

Hi,

     I've never had the opportunity to have a monitored session, but I believe
I would most probably have more difficulty focusing/relaxing to get to the
target. But then I am the type that doesn't like people watching me. Just
knowing that someone else is waiting for me to get to the target would take
some of my focus away.  I like to wait for myself to be in the right, "oh who
cares" mood. .   Maybe personality has a lot to do with it.

     Many people do seem to get a lot out of it.

Take care,
Linda

-----------------------------
Moderator's note: I'm one of those people who even goes out of the way to sit in
corner booths and with my back to the wall in public places.  Left over
hypervigilant habits from childhood I guess.  I really dislike the feeling of
being watched and am generally a very private person (you'd never know it via
internet, lol).  So maybe my inhibition response isn't unusual. :-) -- PJ

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#1812
 	From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:22 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	maliolana
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Aloha PJ,

> I'm one of those people who even goes out of
> the way to sit in corner booths and with my back
> to the wall in public places. [...] I really
> dislike the feeling of being watched and am
> generally a very private person

I always take the seat facing everything... but the wall
(restaurants/etc)as well...Guess I saw too many mafia movies...never face
your back to the door!...haha...I did learn to overcome the inhibition of
being watched though...I took a class in public speaking in 9th
grade...and many handicapped students happened to be in that summer
school class...many with literal speech impediments...not just nervous
stuttering like I was manifested as a small child and body shakes/red
face/sweats as a teen)...their bravery was so overpowering it shamed me
into overcoming fear of standing in front of a classroom...

Whereas it took a few more years to overcome being terrified of entering
a large room of people alone (like the school cafeteria)...I did
eventually perform in many plays(college/clubs)...but the absolute
deliberateness of these stage performances (plus rehearsals)were ...I
believe was a plus...For some reason I trusted the anonymous audiences...

When I attended Mary Smiths Group Insight development classes (originally
established for suffers of chronic pain (primarily back injuries and
teaching them to control their pain relieving them from being forced to
take the massive legal drugs they were burdened with))...in the
70's.(Honolulu ...not our PJRV Mary Smith)..we learned to
meditate...First learning to center... then to reach  REM sleep and then
going on guided journeys...the goal to  firmly establish Self
Insight...and thus selfcontrol...physical/mental...
and it eventually worked for the great majority...these people were
almost at the end of their ropes...drug therapies were killing them...

Trust was never a question...and her mellow/soothing/kind voice was an
asset...She did not direct our journey ...she merely helped set the
framework...
and gently kept us in session...awake...she was a member of Esalan and
several other Institutes worldwide...and we all greatly benefited from
her education/experience...

I think I would do well with a monitor...if I could get past the trust
barrier... and that might well be quite a hurdle for me...

I visited a fairly popular hypnotist in the seventies...to try to get
some help to quit smoking...I was not even sure I could be
hypnotized...but as it went along ...I became quite surprised that it was
beginning to work...and then the guy made a lethal mistake...he said "You
no longer have any power...I have complete control over you"...I snapped
out of it peremptorily!...and left...and never went back...

I also became aware that only this guy and I were aware of what was going
on...and no way I could trust a complete stranger and give up all my own
power... and to such a pompous ass at that!...Trust is mandatory...

I don't see Rv as giving up my power to anything or anyone..(of course I
have never had a monitor)...I see it as shifting control from one part of
self to another...I feel much more comfortable with this
scenario......My higher self is my higher power...I figure if I can't
trust myself...who can I trust...

Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna

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#1819
 	From: aeonblueau8008...
Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:06 pm
Subject: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	terri8008
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> Moderator's note: I'm one of those people who
> even goes out of the way to sit in corner booths
> and with my back to the wall in public places.
> Left over hypervigilant habits from childhood I
> guess.  I really dislike the feeling of being
> watched and am generally a very private person

  . . . The feeling of being watched.. oh gosh and what/other control
issues... I understand that, but you get over it. It's not like being
watched, it's more like working in tandem with someone (you (right
brained)depend and trust in them). Well, I guess you have to get over
yourself. It's not all that hard once you do it. I'm sorry you have such a
hurdle. But it's no biggie once you jump it.

My hang-ups are snoring.. I don't want anyone to suffer my snoring, then
again if I snore, I'm too deep, sometimes I say or refer to one or two pillow
sessions, One pillow I'll snore, that keeps me more aware(solo), two pillows
i'm pretty much good, dont go too deep. at least I don't snore.

The other day yesterday or the day before... I was sitting in a chair, I
crossed my arms and legs, let my head drop, I knew I was a goner... I was
asleep trying like hell to keep the bod upright, god this is all so hard.
Some targets pull you deep like that, but it's not pretty (glory be to the
monitor who tries to pull a session outa me before I've slept it off)

I'm not watched during session, monitor is like my right hand an extension of
me. I can be a bit lax, I know and depend on monitor to pull descriptive from
me, move me about, keep me somewhat cognizant. I'm dependent on the monitor,
guess that's the way I was raised. It's a comforting feeling, I don't have to
think all to much in session.

You might try...
having a totally absolutely darkened room.. have your monitor sit way across
the room, 20'. (Voice, sound seem amplified to me during session.)  Try
that.. your totally in the dark no ones looking at you. (and your safe)

(personal)paranoia doesn't even enter in to a session....
Your in this for self and that's the only thing-being that's there.
That's about it.

All the best  ~~Terri

----------------------
Moderator's note: in the note above, I wasn't talking about sessions anymore. 
Just general response to environment in life.  I didn't feel watched or paranoid
in the session, LOL!  I'm almost sorry I mentioned it now since it seems like in
conversation it got made into a bigger thing than it really was.  Appreciate the
comments though. -- PJ

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#1875
 	From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	maliolana
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Aloha Guys,
This is where I was trying to end up with that last long rambling post I
wrote...Trust...I have come to learn to respect my own opinion so
much...trust myself...that I would really have to respect the
monitor/their opinions a lot...to let theirs over rule mine...and might
very well not be
able to stay in focus...were they to try to steer me in such a way that I
be-came aware of it...Just the idea could mess me up...Ego says...even
when
they are correct and I am not!.I prefer to experience it......haha...I
am
high anxiety level...

My ego is now so time worn...that it is aware that it has been wrong
many times...hahah...and will in all probability be wrong again...haha...
The thing I am greatful for is that I have arrived at this juncture in my
life...and have the nerve to eventually just chuckle when I am
incorrect!... haha...It yousto really bug me to be wrong...on
anything!...haha

I need to analyze my own actions...without feedback that would be
impossible with RV...and if I became aware that they had steered me in
another direction...and I was still unsure of their judgement...compared
to mine...I would probably fall out of focus...

I even had bones to pick with the RV test at gotpsi when it was Boundary
Institute...
a couple of years ago...I noticed it was doing some very lousy
judging...(in my novice book anyway!)...It was giving me very high
points for a lousy session and low scores for hits...

I talked to Dean Radin PEM...(as I am sure many others did also)...and
Dean now has a RV test where it asks for our judging analysis of a
target...Just us regular gotpsi test takers...Whereas before... it was on
the consensus of a number of  ananomous 'experts'...So the focus group
has broadened to include many random opinions...I wonder what they have
discovered from this...(I learned a great deal from gotpsi...even  from
the RV test)...

Hey...Let's ask Dean Raden if we can grill /interview him
sometime?...haha... He is a wonderful guy and maybe he will even come on
the group for a while when he has time...

Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna

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#1876
 	From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: RV Angst / Monitors 	maliolana
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Aloha guys,

There is a definate correlation here to talk show hosts and
moderators...and talent and viewer...hahah...I have heard this stroy told
many times about the guest from hell...and now I see it is
correlated...Guest/viewer...Don't ask me what this correlation
means...hahah

Ahhh...Maybe PJ's "Drama Queens"?...