How do you make an ideogram?


New Member
Hey I'm confused.

The guy on YouTube Edward does ideograms slowly. But everyone here says to do them in 1 second.

All my 1-sec ideograms end up being one line no matter what the target. But if I do them slowly, they look different and one time I even got a loop.

What's the correct way?
There is no "correct" way.

However, CRV theory posits that ideograms are rapid kineasthetic reactions to the signal line. Probably around 1 second or less.

There are many potential reasons for the flat (?) line.

What you may benefit from is doing some ideogram drills, to program your subsconscious to produce the shape you want.


I"m doing ideogram drills now by visualizing words and images and then drawing the same ideogram over and over. I was thinking of writing a program that would speak randomly selected or repeated words to me at a speed I set. The program would have the words for the basic set of ideograms Daz talked about in his book: "land, water, life form humanoid, life form animal, artificial structure, natural structure, energetic, space, object", as well as a set of words to select from or modify, or that the user could type in and store.
I'm wondering how other people did ideogram drills, and if they think a computer generated voice would be acceptable for this task. The voice can be changed to male or female, pitch and speed can be set also. I'd post it as freeware for anyone to use, it would be written in Visual Basic 6 and run on Windows and probably under Wine on Linux, source code would be available also. Does this sound useful to anyone for stage 1 drills?


Active Member
When I did it I just recorded a bunch of different words with voice recorder as mp3s then used Media Player set on random shuffle.


New Member
People say many things, that you have to do ideogram drills, or that ideograms are universal and everyone's subconscious understands the same ideograms, or that shape doesn't matter at all and only what you feel when you probe it matters. Ultimately the correct way is what works for you. The only way you can know what works for you is to do practice sessions, take notes of what you feel during the session, then review after you see the feedback to see what you got right and what you got wrong.

I'm still finding my way in this stuff, but here's what I have found works for me so far. I made a bunch of simple targets that are mostly one gestalt. Things like a picture of a concrete bridge with only the sky as the background, and the target is the concrete bridge, which is manmade. You can put together a few dozen pictures covering all basic gestalts pretty quickly with Google Images. Find some way to pick a random target from your pictures, either print them off and put them in envelopes, or write a program to pick a random file from your computer. Then I do several short sessions each day if I have time, and I review sessions from previous days. Don't forget to look at past sessions, I have found it critical to keep going back to them so I can see patterns over time. After a while you start to see some patterns and you get an idea what manmade feels like, and so on.

The key is to keep practicing, paying attention to what you sense, keep reviewing your own work, see what works for you and what doesn't, and keep learning by seeing what others do so you can get ideas to try for yourself. It's an interesting journey to be sure :)
There is also a JAVA based downloadable applet in the CRV yahoo group's file folder. It is teh best software for ideogram drills. hands down. thus, works on mac and pc.

Never had too much succcess with the ideogram drills myself. Others though report considerable success with teh approach. different strokes for different folks.


Thanks to everyone who commented, I found them all interesting. I did some s1 drills and immediately started seeing the ideograms showing up in my s1 squiggles. That was very pleasing so I'm going to keep on doing the drills. Daz's ideograms seem to work great for me. So for me it's just a matter of doing more practice.


New Member
Hey thanks everyone for replying. It sounds like ideograms are basically a throw-up. You can draw them slow or fast, as long as you get the target right (in Stage 1).

I bought a used copy of Ed Dames's LRV. He doesn't use ideograms. U draw one, but then that's it lol....

I like his method better because there isn't so much shooting in the dark and trying to figure out how to probe the ideogram.

His method is really mainstreamed, almost effortless. Now, I had more success when I was trying to figure out the crv manual on my own, but with LRV, I'm getting vaguer stuff, but at least it's not hit-or-miss. LRV = greater accuracy, but precision is slower. With the CRV manual, it's either you get significant precision or you just miss completely and not know it.


Staff member
There's a great post from Daz Smith on this topic here: