Masking and Entrainment

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
Daz said:
PJ wrote:
Maybe, but I don't understand why people seem to have zero delineation about the VIEWER'S intent. If the viewer is defining the tasker's mental intent as the driver/context/framework/directive for the target, then that is what we are forced to assume IS so; there is no reason to assume that what some guy down the street is thinking when he sees my session three years from now is "just as impactive" as the specific thoughts of the specific person that I was attempting to base a session on.
Daz wrote:
I don't see things like this.
I see it as - if a tasker can influence and directly communicate with seven or more remote viewers on a target then there is NO reason on not believe that anyone reviewing the project cannot also communicate mind wise with the takser and remote viewers as who's to say where the participation starts or stops, and we all know form science that the people watching experiments become part of the experiments. If one or more minds can interact - then all the minds can intract - surely?

I just don't think this is even logical--the point you are leaving out is THE VIEWER. The Viewer is the person who truly defines things; it is that the viewer chooses to "ride" the "tasker's intent" as their definition, an allowing/accepting, that makes the tasker the driver. The viewer can choose to ride something else as definition -- the feedback, or their own opinion after the fact of what constituted the target, or whatever is 'most needed', or several other variants -- a viewer can deliberately exclude most of the tasker from the task if they so choose, or just specific things; the viewer's intent is paramount.

Of course this requires that the viewer (a) have a decently strong will, and (b) that they KNOW it is THEIR intent which is the driver. If you convince a viewer that they are totally helpless, that they are at the whim of the tasker, the analyst, and every person who ever looks at their session, then you're breeding fundamental insecurity/weakness into the viewer.

Hell this isn't just a viewer thing although I think it's way, way more profound and dangerous an effect for viewers simply because it is so subtle and even ineffable. But this goes for nearly any performance art and skill and sport that a human being does. Teach people that they are strong and they have the power and they do; teach them that they are helpless in the face of everybody else and they will be.

PJ
 

Mycroft

Active Member
I believe the Tasker's intent is always the most overriding factor of any normally tasked session, by virtue of submitting to do the task we become willing savants, to say otherwise is denial.

Because time is a man made construct anyone and any feedback received at any time has an impact on the session data. Even the relationship of a casual observer to the Remote Viewer has an impact on the session data. We are all connected at some level, the cumulative subject knowledge of the Viewer combined with the subject knowledge of the Tasker will have a great effect.

In the same way people are submissive to their spouses there are always boundaries and areas for compromise given the situation. The Viewer does not become a slave to the the Tasker. Maybe more like a contractual union, one of the reasons I believe it is important for the Tasker to also be a Viewer to the other person.

So far nobody's addressed what happens when a Tasker tasks someone on an object they don't know what it is and where it came from and how that data comes back accurately. The intent is what drives the event both parties participating willingly to bring the solution requested back.

It is a momentary setting aside of the ego, a type of spiritual supplication. Now I know someone is going to run with this one as some sort of Guru or Hero worship but that would just be their ego (self worship and adornment) getting in the way.

Mycroft
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
I agree it's a relationship. I simply believe that the viewer chooses how to construct that relationship and how much power the tasker has in it. It's a subtle thing obviously. Perhaps I believe in self-determinism and 'personal responsibility' enough that I'm just not willing to consider the viewer helpless in the equation, at the mercy of in this conversation not just the tasker but literally people eons later looking at their sessions that weren't even in the intent-loop.

It is true that consciousness has no inherent hard boundaries and that's why we can merge, flex and flow. But it's also true that everything is created by consciousness--including hard boundaries when we so choose.

Some of this, obviously, is philosophy -- remote viewing is pretty much hinged on personal belief systems, so I expect the philosophies of viewers vary quite a bit, given that viewing does! :)

PJ
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
I just don't think this is even logical--the point you are leaving out is THE VIEWER. The Viewer is the person who truly defines things; it is that the viewer chooses to "ride" the "tasker's intent" as their definition, an allowing/accepting, that makes the tasker the driver. The viewer can choose to ride something else as definition -- the feedback, or their own opinion after the fact of what constituted the target, or whatever is 'most needed', or several other variants -- a viewer can deliberately exclude most of the tasker from the task if they so choose, or just specific things; the viewer's intent is paramount.

Pj
Ill agree that there is a symbotic relationship - im not sure though that the viewer is in total control over the rv process. Also to do what you describe you'd need to know info up front to decide what route to take. I don't agree that the viewer has the amount choice you specify and that they can filter where and how they get their data - maybe I don't know -but at this stage we just don't really know, or I haven't seen enough to show/prove it either way.

but what I said still stands if there is a relationship between tasker and viewer then I see no reason why there is a relationship between all involved and that includes any future analysts of the rv work - now this may be subtle but its possible.

As an example I've seen people get amazing ARV results over 80% accuracy for very long runs - they then go public and people outside the closed group start looking at the data/sessions and results and the accuracy changes - now I'm not saying this is the only reason that this happens but you also cant discount it.

A symbiosis by more than one mind this would also explain why a team of remote viewers with only one target coord and tasking form a tasker, will independently all describe different parts of the target creating a whole. This would seem like all the viewers and the tasker communicate at some level - and if so - then again I see no reason why anyone analysing the data from the point of outside, might also factor into the data in some way.


daz
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
Because someone on the internet looking at your session three years later is *not in the intent loop* of the tasker/viewer, or the tasker/viewer-group. You might as well say that you lost a karate match in 1994 because someone yesterday saw it on video and was thinking badly about you. Possible? Yes in a consciousness sense anything is possible. But it'd be your responsibility to make sure your intent for the match was paramount.

Mind you if a tasker IS involved and the viewer chooses to go with that -- which is usually the case -- then of _course_ the tasker's intent is a huge factor -- that is a given. But you can view without a tasker, around or through a tasker, or no science in history let alone public demos run by skeptics would ever have succeeded. And really the main thing I was disputing above was not so much the tasker role anyway as the idea that the "intent loop" of the tasker + viewer is somehow about the same thing as every person who ever sees the session from then on. The viewer has accepted the tasker; they have not accepted that every other person in the universe who chances on their session gets to be part of it.

I believe that is something a viewer has the potential to control (at least dominantly) -- but that does not mean that I think most viewers are competent to do so, which is really another subject altogether. Remote viewing in my opinion operates with the same dynamics as ceremonial magick, as one example; it's a "which is to be master" question, always.

Best,
PJ
 

psilentone

New Member
Interesting subject here. I think that when a viewer accepts a tasker/viewer relationship it is very much the same as giving up power to the tasker. It is a matter of trust. If you don't believe that is the case...let me task YOU.
By saying OK, task me ,a viewer is saying more or less that they will accept your taskings. If those taskings begin to feel like something a viewer didn't sign up for then perhaps a different tasker is in order.
There is a lot of trust given to a tasker and it should not be taken lightly.
 

blackcat

Member
The more you dig into it, the more you slam up against questions about the nature of reality itself. Who is in charge? There are some that say that EVERYTHING that ever happens to you is entirely of your chosing at some level. So if you are walking through the park and lightening strikes you from a cloud 40 miles away and you have half your skin fried off, it's entirely your fault because on some level, you chose to walk there at that time and on some level, you program all your own life experiences. (Interestingly, the longer I live, the more I would not be surprised if this was in some ways at least true)

I remember when I was at TMI, I had some interesting experiences, the most surprising and pervasive of which were continuing dreams about all of us that were there all sitting in a room together and discussing our experiences and what had happened and will happen to each of our physical selves while at TMI. But we were having this discussion while we were sleeping! But even those who were running the program (the 2 councilers) and were awake were visible there (to me) and taking part in this etheric discussion as well. I would have been tempted to suspect it was imagination (and did at first) until I started hearing stuff in etheric discussion only to have the indentical statements made by the same person later in waking state discussions! And then I started quizzing the other people and verifying what was said to me in the etheric and it was all true! Oh if only I could have such a handle on perfectly accurate dreaming during the whole rest of my life! But instead the experience was only about super boring little details of the other TMIers lives and opinions.

But what it made me suspect was that although we are our own masters so to speak, we also make our otherworldly decisions based on a group effort and interaction. We are always connected and interacting in ways we don't understand well in waking state. (sorry if that got to weird for ya..)

I think the point I am trying to sneak up on is that even if we are our own masters and the viewer is always his/her own master, it may not prevent you from having serious problems, nefarious sneaky taskings, or life altering traumas. (Just as in real life, things happen to us that in waking state we swear we don't want to happen.) Maybe the part of 'you' that is in charge has very different attitudes about what is good for you than the 'you' that is awake right now. We don't know much about the part of us that is 'in charge' and doing the viewing when we are performing our sessions. Maybe that part of you gets a bit bored once in a while and feels a bit of drama might be good for you! ;-P

As for this masking/entrainment tasking thing. I seem to recall it was first mentioned up on HRVG very very shortly after our big discussions on Pru's retrotasking and there are quite a number of similarities, mostly the idea that without asking permission in advance, the tasker can embed one kind of desired data into a session that is apparently on another target, theoretically without particularly requiring the divulgence of the sneaked in data. Theoretically, the viewers need not be ever told about the embedded data, hence the obviousl potential for abuse by the tasker. Since the concept of thought forms and the concept of retrotasking and sneaky embedded tasking were already well hashed out by then, I did not personally find the concept of entrainment/masking super surprising nor super out of the realm of possibility at that point.

The real question is would a viewer have a potential guard against it or could a viewer block it if he/she wanted to do so. Say the viewer was not only not a student of the tasker, but also say the viewer was adamantly against allowing the embedded data and was a strong viewer and thoroughly did not believe in teh possibility of it being possible and in fact did not want it to be possible? Such that the viewer had no waking state reason to be amenable or complicit in the subterfuge. Would it still work? Would the viewing mind even care much about such a small thing as to block it or would such minor influence not even be blocked? Does the subconscious viewing mind even share the exact same moral structure as the waking mind?

Seems to me, so far the experiments were only done on those viewers that were potentially willing and interested to see if the experiment would work. That this could work does not surprise me if the viewers were essentially willing on some level. But what is the same were done on a viewer who (for the sake of argument) happened to hate Glenn, did not know Glenn was the tasker, and would be completely horrified about any attempted entrainment? Would it still work? Of course, then only way to find out would be a very unethical way..

One thing that the HRVG experiment does seem to show, and I think we have seen this before but I think it does bare noting, is that it's entirely posssible for many different viewers of many different methods, to get very very similar data on a target that DOES NOT ACTUALLY EXIST other than in the mind of the tasker. Just because data corresponds does not mean the target is real. It could be in the mind of the tasker only. It also implies that strong opinions and belief systems may also have the power to corrupt viewers, especially those viewers who have a desire to please and who are pleased when they see their data corresponds with the other viewers. Hence the traditional desire in CRV to keep things secret and prevent chitchat between viewers on important operational taskings where you want data to be as accurate and uncorrupted as possible.

By the way I agree about what someone else said, that in many ways, this does have a lot to do with remote viewing, even though in other ways, it doesn't. Ever notice lately that the most interesting threads are not about classical rv? Maybe it's cuz it's new stuff that is more interesting and hasn't already been talked to death with the same conversations over and over and over..

-Eva
 

psilentone

New Member
Yes Blackcat it does bring up some interesting questions like would a rape be acceptable if the person's subconcious agreed to the rape? If the ego is unaware of it I believe that it is still a rape. Sometimes it is safer to hide in the "there are so many questions" mode and not to look at the basics.
As per the sleeping conversations I have been having them for years. For some reason I have been hesitant to discuss them with anyone until now. I get the sense that in the end it is all about merging the consious with the unconsious and one day I will wake up and it will all fit together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Until then I remain mystified and amazed and wildly confused. BTW its 3 am here and I am awake after some very eventful sleep.
I am OK with putting this in another category though I do see that it relates to RV as well as other things.
It is always a pleasure to see you here Eva as I enjoy your comments and observations.
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
LOL a great and interesting thread.
Because someone on the internet looking at your session three years later is *not in the intent loop* of the tasker/viewer, or the tasker/viewer-group. You might as well say that you lost a karate match in 1994 because someone yesterday saw it on video and was thinking badly about you. Possible? Yes in a consciousness sense anything is possible. But it'd be your responsibility to make sure your intent for the match was paramount.

Maybe, but the universe is alot larger than my intent - and the universe may have other plans and factors in play.

The way I see it is this;
Either minds or parts of us can all communicate or they cant.
If there exists a connection between viewer, tasker, and analysts then there exists a connection between all analysts (even future ones) - I don't see any cut off by some hypothetical 'intent loop'.

Physics shows us that the person watching the experiment can affect the outcome of the experiment (particles/waves n stuff). Add to this the fact that nothing we see exists and that we create the universe around us and everything else and you get a larger picture.

I'm not trying to suspend blame or anything for a bad session - but I don't think your allowing the unseen universe a play in life - there maybe other things in play which we don't yet understand.
Yes I agree your intent should always be focussed - i just see a bigger picture than this where everything and all things are connect with NO barriers or loops of any kind (other than self created ones).

daz
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
Ok I've been given permission to add some details on this project from Dick (HRVG). http://www.hrvg.org/discussion/index.php

I know he wants to hold some back for his upcoming presentation at the IRVA conference and that he is trying to register here to comment on this thread - so I hope im not giving too much here - I did ask so I hope not. ???

Here is my rv session for the project: http://www.remoteviewed.com/daz_masked.pdf

Heres the feedback image: http://www.remoteviewed.com/feedback.jpg
feedback.jpg


This was a discussion I had with Dick after receiving the feedback, as I was a little confused (easily done with me) - it explains in detail the project and its aims.

Hello Daz,

When you ask “What does all this mean in English?” it makes me realize how much Glenn has taught us in the 10 years we’ve been attending class every week, always learning something new. So many of the terms and concepts and methods we employ may seem alien to a lot of folks in the RV community.

I will try to explain what this mask target was about.
Several years ago Glenn began introducing us to the concepts of masking and entrainment. The class lectures were dozens if not hundreds of hours. Our practice and application also involves a lot of time and energy.

Earlier this year I spent several months creating a mask. I went to an art store and purchased a large piece of sketching paper (11 by 16 inches) and I drew a place.

The place is called Terrapin and it is about 20 miles by 30 miles.
There are distinct geographical features and obvious gestalts. Think of a place that has mountains, a forested area, a lake and a river.
There is a city and some smaller communities. I located a city center with historic buildings, infrastructure like roads, wastewater treatment, power generation. I named towns, I named specific buildings, roads and recreation areas. I gave the place history.
Whenever I had a free hour at work I would breathe life into the mask.

For this recent target I selected one small location (about 2 miles
wide) in Terrapin; a man-made earthen dam named Tanner Dam. I know that it is 15 miles Northwest of the major city. I know that it is at about 3200 feet elevation. I know that there is a cell phone tower on a hillside northeast of the dam. I know there is a marina on the lake where people keep and use sailboats. I know that the area around the lake is hilly, what you would consider small mountains. I know there is a small town of about 1200 people downstream of the dam. It is called Tanner Creek. I could speak for an hour about the location. I could draw all the roads, tell you about the festival they have, who owns the sailboat rental concession on the lake, the history of the Indians who were there 150 years ago before the dam was made and created the lake.

I took all of this information to a local artist and paid him a nice sum to paint my dam and my lake and surrounding area. I showed him my sketches and described the place. He asked questions and I answered the questions and he drew a very nice watercolor of my lake and my dam.

I gave this a target ID R5M3-T7F0. Every day that this target was assigned I “serviced” the mask. I looked at the picture of Tanner Dam and thought about it and kept it alive in my conscious awareness.

I will say this about the validity of Tanner Dam as a remote viewing target. ( I don’t feel I need to defend it because you all brought back great data about it.) I have cued hundreds of targets and I am proud to have a reputation as a “good targeteer.” That means viewers over the years have often told me they find it easy to get data about most targets that I cue. I have cued many targets by selecting a photo off the internet with strong gestalts or interesting visuals. I can say with certainty that my knowledge of Tanner Dam exceeds what I knew about a lot of targets I have successfully tasked. The place is more real to me, and I know more about it than a lot of targets I’ve posted.

This is evidenced in the work of the viewers. I hope everyone takes the time to look at all the sessions, especially those done by George, Debra, Maria, and Anne. Everyone brought back valid data about the mask target.

I serviced this mask. That means I kept it alive. I looked at the place and thought about it and kept it real in my consciousness.

HOW IT WAS ENTRAINED
As I serviced Tanner Dam target I also watched the US stock market.
By my observing my mask (Tanner Dam) and the US stock market I created an entrainment. The US stock market is entrained with Tanner dam. What happens in one location is mirrored in the other. I did not fully believe this was possible until Glenn did an entrainment at his house with a roulette wheel in Las Vegas and HRVG members won every night 4 nights in a row, one time 10 reds in a row. When you put hundred dollar bills on the table based on "entrainment" and win, you become a believer.

So why task a dam when you want to know what the stock market is going to do? How would you task a viewer to find out what is going to happen in the near future (keep in mind this was tasked last month) in the US stock market? What would your target cue be?

How would the viewers provide data? If the stock market goes up bells ring, people cheer, there is a lot of yelling, concepts of “trade” “sell” “buy” etc. If the stock market goes down bells ring, people cheer, there is a lot of yelling, concepts of “trade” “sell” “buy” etc. What would be the difference in viewer sessions between an up day and a down day on Wall Street? I challenge everyone- show me a session that is good enough to specifically indicate the difference?

Look at all the work (mine included) in the recent Climate Change Project. The gestalts are the bare minimum at best. What can you really say based on that work?

So a mask is a way to provide specific data in the form of a gross gestalt. We know remote viewers can be pretty good at perceiving a gross gestalt, like a lake a dam or a major flooding event. Consider again the subcue in my mask target:

This is the subcue for R5M3-T7F0:

A significant decline in the US stock market (Dow Jones Industrial Average) will be mirrored in the mask by a catastrophic downward movement of water at Tanner Dam.

If trading is suspended it will be mirrored by barriers to human movement and vehicular traffic in the mask. Severity of stock market decline will be mirrored by alarms, emergency vehicles, human casualties at the Tanner Dam target mask.

Near future timeline End of October 2008

Near future stock market without major change will be mirrored by the dam and lake and town as depicted in the mask.

None of the viewers described emergencies! Drama! Flooding!
Catastrophe! Human alarm! All viewers described a natural gestalt, and many described a nice lake in a hilly location.

However, there was wording in the work that included:
Michele: “The drop is very steep.” “”This depression is very deep.”
Daz: “Downward movement”
Maria: “Deep drop.”

Just one day after this target wrapped up we began analysis on Monday Sept 15. On Tuesday Sept 16 the market dropped 500 points and 450 the next.

This was indeed a “deep drop” but not the major stock market crash in the target cue.

We worked on analysis of the 10 sessions on Monday and need about 4 more hours of work. The analysis is key. What you see is not what you get. In the meantime I will make some images from the work and send them to you. It is an interesting project.

Now that you know what the mask was and now that you know what the subcue (mirror) is I invite you to reread Glenn's email. One final note. Don't try this at home! It took me years of work to execute this successful mask/overlay/entrainment. The mental exercise was as difficult as anything I've ever done.

Questions? Comments? Criticism?

Aloha,

Dick
 

Marv_Darley

New Member
Staff member
Cheers for posting Daz. Pretty interesting stuff. If only the guys over at HRVG would lose some of the bombast and the 'prophet-like' presentation of Glenn Wheaton as the next RV messiah I might be able to read their posts without wincing. :-X

One note of caution to those involved: there is no real evidence that the drop in the stock market was succesfully predicted by the use of this entrained target. Ask anyone to describe a dam and they will mention a 'steep drop' as part of their impressions. Had Dick tasked a volcano it is likely that the concept of 'eruption' or 'upwards movement' would be present in the data. The entrainment target was loaded from the start.

I know that you have all those other cues appended to the tasking but I seriously doubt that a tasker has that much control over a viewer's data. How comfortable would you guys be with a cue like this:

Describe the location of Person xxxx
If Person xxx is dead describe a tombstone
If Person xxx is in motion describe a train
If Person xxx has consciously chosen to run away from home describe their middle finger raised
If Person xxx has been abducted describe etc etc etc etc etc


Strikes me as a hideous cacophony of noise that attempts to wrestle the viewing process out of the viewer's hands, turning them instead into a tool to be played by the tasker as he sees fit. Isn't really about RV, is it? More like psychic puppetry.

Also bear in mind that the DOW was on the slide from October 2007 and thus predicting further downward movement in an already downward trend is no big deal. I notice that Dick didn't include an entrained response should the DOW start rising rapidly etc so one assumes that he was pretty certain of the continued slide downwards at the time of constructing the cue.

The tasking is all about describing various states of decline...using an entrained target whose chief gestalt is a steep drop. Hardly surprising they got the 'downwards' results they did.

Incidentally I did a quick google on Tanner Dam and there actually is one lol...John Tanner Lake Dam in Georgia. I wonder if maybe your subconscious took you there instead when you were doing your session. Nice work if so. 8)

http://www.stateparks.com/john_tanner__lake_dam_a.html

An interesting idea overall I agree, just not particularly well executed in this instance and wholly inconclusive. It isn't really RV either; more a weird kind of 'tasker-based future-probe' thingy.

I like the watercolour though. :)

Marv :)
 

Mycroft

Active Member
Thanks Daz for sharing the email and the great session.

To me it just sounds like ARV.

View this xxxx-xxxx (target is a light bulb) with the queue: If it is viewed as bright I will buy, if it is dark I will sell (stock abc). Letting intent fill in the blanks.

I'm not missing the point that he was making by having the picture created and life like giving it a life of it's own and keeping it 'active', I've got all of that. This is more near Golem instead of Tulpa, because he stated that he had to keep it active. These things are more than folklore.

A slight side track to this is one of those healers that can take body parts out wash them out, heal them and put them back in. Most people don't know but there is a limit to the number of people that can witness these things based on the power of the healers ability to transport everyones consciousness outside of local reality where the operation is actually performed.

I will try to see the application point of view, using a damn to correlate to the stock market does raise questions as Marv pointed out.

Still though, the event does make you wonder. But why shouldn't it be possible? Lyn Buchanan wrote about thoughts being able to be remote viewed. My question is why is this such a big issue now? I guess I jumped to the conclusion that everybody knew you could view thought forms just like mind reading.

I bet 20% of you could remote view the lower world I have mapped in my own mind for journeying.

The masters wrote much about seeking without seeing and seeing without seeking, etc. Some of the email reminded me of some of Nostradamus' nomenclature. I think more research in this area is definitely required.

Mycroft
 

psilentone

New Member
To my way of thinking something very unusual in a target should appear to represent a specific future occurrance like if the base target was a dam then something like say an apple may appear to indicate a downward trend. Something that doesn't seem to belong in the target by its nature. A standout object. Further I would only add that only if the viewer in daily life would offer to give up this information.
I applaud any RVer who makes a plan, has an idea and shows the bravery to make it puplic. Kudos.
Marv does make a good point though. Still ,a group effort at designing an experiment like this might be a better approach. Given that that group has to be an accepting environment and not antagonistic to the person who bravely puts forth their idea. It is easy to take apart an idea but much more difficult to make one.
One more thing I would like to say is that inspite of the contagious curiosity of science and intellectual appeal I am always disheartened to find that given a wonderfull gift like RV/psi people still only want to know what kind of personal gain that can get them. I understand. It just makes me sad thats all.
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
I understand your comments guys but I think the cue was for the viewer to present catastrophic data
A significant decline in the US stock market (Dow Jones Industrial Average) will be mirrored in the mask by a catastrophic downward movement of water at Tanner Dam.
which didn't occur in any (I think) of the rv sessions. So I would have used the data to make any decisions if it were my experiment.

I do agree that it throws up more questions than answers and isn't solid its its protocol and structure but Like Marv's Superman experiment - but ANY experimental work and sharing of projects between schools and disciplines is a plus in my book and Ill work to be a part of any of them that do so. Otherwise you just get a stagnant field.

all the best...

Daz
 

blackcat

Member
Perhaps because most of the dam feedback photos are taken from the bottom looking up, I have probably never described a dam as a sharp drop. More likely would be me describing it as an upward slope or a big wall or cliff in front of me. Or I could describe it as water standing still or held back or not moving. My point is, a viewer could easily find description that would both describe a dam AND describe ANY basic stock movement. In fact, I really would not be in the least surprised if this basic method of using symbolic phrasing could work for predicting future events. Basically, the HRVG method is using two targets for one session. One target has simple gestalts and then the tasker is asking the viewers to embed concepts for the second target (ie stock market movements) within the description of the first target. I see no reason why this would not work especially if the viewers were willling.

Like if I gave 10 different viewers a normal viewing task that turned out to be a specific stock market movement, I would not be surprised if one viewer described a collapsing building (symbolic answer), another described sad people (perhaps focusing on emotions of stock holders), another described hectic group activity and interaction (focus on basic concept), another described dwindling resources (describing another related concept), etc. Each viewer has certain tendencies in their viewing and then there is variation even between sessions of the same viewer. This is why tasking and analysis of complex concepts can be tricky.

When Pru tasked stuff like this, she knew her viewers' tendencies and so was prepared to see symbolic answers from certain viewers and tasked accordingly. The main difference is she didn't provide a second 'mask' target to try to limit potential symbolic options. Instead, she refined the tasking to be very select for each viewer's tendencies and only tasked those viewers who had strong skillsets in the prefered areas.

IMO the questions here are not can masking and entrainment (or something similar to this basic concept)be done, but can they be done against a viewer's will and how reliable are they? For any real claims to fame, a viewing group would have to repeatedly make predictions publically in advance and then have those predictions repeatedly turn out to be more accurate than can be explained by chance. So far, few groups have made any concerted legitimate effort to do this and none to my knowledge have been able to show any kind of even slightly exciting track record when they did. (the only potential exception I know of is Mcmoneagle and he is not really a 'group' but a singular person.)
-Eva
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
Blackcat,
good comments.
... For any real claims to fame, a viewing group would have to repeatedly make predictions publically in advance and then have those predictions repeatedly turn out to be more accurate than can be explained by chance. So far, few groups have made any concerted legitimate effort to do this and none to my knowledge have been able to show any kind of even slightly exciting track record when they did. (the only potential exception I know of is Mcmoneagle and he is not really a 'group' but a singular person.)
-Eva

I haven't seen a long list of public predictions form Joe - do you mean his prediction book?

daz
 

blackcat

Member
Joe has done a lot of missing people cases for the police in Japan. Japanese TV has been able to get the Japanese police to work with them. I think the rate of successful finds is up around 50% for people that had already been thoroughly searched for previously and the cases had gone totally dry. And then with the psychic's help, they actually find many of these people! Come to think of it, I am recalling those may have been a group effort after all as there where other psychics as well as Joe and I seem to recall a dowser involved. PJ would know more.

Anyway, I consider those predications as they are predicting where someone would be found and since current location is unknown, you can't cheat and no amount of selective editing will change the fact that they either find the person of they don't. of course, that subject matieral also bypasses the potential problem of probable futures. You are not predicting a future thing but instead something that exists now but is unknown. They also have substantial resources of the police and media backing them which also helps a ton, but of course it was years and years of toil and excellent viewing and public demos on TV that got him into that position in the first place.
-Eva
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
Ah ok I understand.

in that case the Findme Group I work with have also had some success in finding missing persons.
I think I was 200ft or so off target (blind) with my supplied GPS coordinate for the location of a body but one of the group members I think it was a Lyn Crver was 100ft away from a missing person.

See attached feedback from the police chief.

all the best...

Daz


From: Kelly
Sent: 02 April 2009 03:13
Cc: Jack Rourke
Subject: FW: XXXXX XXXXX CASE

To all of the members of FIND ME and those especially that were able to participate in the above case….below are the comments from Chief XXXXXXX……

This is a great example of why we do what we do…..this case was solved 100% based on our information…..All of you should be proud of your efforts…….

Thanks

Kelly

From: Ramon XXXXXXXXX
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:59 PM
To: Kelly
Subject:

Kelly;

Thank you for all your help with our missing person in the City of XXXX XXXXX. Our victim Mr. XXXXX XXXXXX was found about an eight of a mile from his home. He was found floating in the Delaware River within 100 feet of one of the GPS readings your team provided. He was found at approximately 1345 hours on March 19,2009.
The river had been searched a couple of times by boat and scanner with no results the day prior to the body coming to the surface. Part of the information we concentrated on was the area around a submerged tree as predicted by one of your Team members. I have shared your Team efforts with Deputies, Firemen and Medical persons who assisted in the three month long search. Again THNK YOU ... THANKS TO THE TEAM !!!!
The Family now has closure!

Respectfully:


Ramon X. XXXXXXX, XXX.
Police Chief
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX, XXXXX XXXX
XXXXXXXXX
FAX XXX XXXXXX
 

Mycroft

Active Member
Daz said:
in that case the Findme Group I work with have also had some success in finding missing persons.
Sure wish you guys would get to work on that Aruba thing. Even I got a thank you from her father for a little pendulum work. Most would say that she's down at Davey Jones Locker swimming with the fish, but my better half tells me the girl was sold as a sex slave and still lives. I never go against her on matters like this she is far more accurate with the cold ones than I am.

Too many indicators that the girl was moving, that is why they never could get anything.. unless the sea got her.

Yes, closure, my uncle's brother never came home from Vietnam. They lost two brothers in different battlefields at the same time, could only bury one. My uncle transferred from Germany to Vietnam. Closure can give a lot of peace to a family.

Mycroft
 

blackcat

Member
Daz, you have some good viewers and I am sure you have done some good work. However, your kind of setup would not qualify for what I am talking about for public demonstrations and predictions and claims to fame. Groups and individuals that work behind the scenes with mostly confidential problems would not be able to do what I am talking about as most of the taskings and results either would be confidential or would not end up having feedback. It would be nearly impossible to even guess at the overall track record in such endeavors unless a grouping of specific predictions were chosen and made public that would be impossible to have the answer to in advance and would have clear verifiable near future feedback.

IMO, only this kind of thing is going to get the attention of the more reasonable scientific minded elements of the public over the long haul. Certainly, I don't expect every rv group or individual to choose that goal. But I think that overall lack of such activities has hurt rv over the years. The proof is in the pudding for all the hype and argument, overall, there has been a considerable lack of pudding! Why is it that almost no one in the whole rv community can seem to create some kind of vaguely accurate looking track record? Is it that it can't be done by existing skill levels or are people and groups just afraid to put their necks on the line and take a risk of being wrong? Anyway, it's something I often think about..
-Eva
 
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