Remote Influence. Does it exist?

Liz

New Member
             "Remote influencing is a significant issue that deserves a lot of attention."
                      Joe McMoneagle
                       Remote Viewing Secrets

                                     ***
Joe McMoneagle says that one of two things are possibly happening when someone performs RI.

A: A subject can be using precognition to PREDICT when a variance from the norm will occur.

B: A subject can be CAUSING the variance by direct mental intervention.

                                   ***
I've had a number of experiences with RI and I have wondered the same thing myself. But after thinking about it I believe it could be both A and B and aso a combination of each.  I'll give you a couple of examples to show what I mean.

I used to RI the weather quite often. Sometimes it worked really well but other times it didn't. I practiced to the point where I could feel if my RI was going to work or not. I didn't bother trying if I felt it wouldn't work on that day.
This got me much better results until I realized that it wasn't RI at all. I was just tuning into what the weather was going to be (subconsciously) and if it corresponded to what I wanted I would feel my RI would work so I'd go ahead and RI it.

This would correspond with what Joe said about using precognition to PREDICT, then calling it RI.

Another example was when I was young and silly I had a crush on a boy. He liked me but not enough to date me so I decided to RI him. (bad me!)
I decided I'd program his thinking so that he thought I was his soul-mate.
The next day he rang me to tell me he had a fabulous dream telling him that his soul mate was Liz.......another Liz who lived in the same town as us.

You have no idea how stunned I was that it worked. I had influenced him even though he was obviously stupid enough to think it was another Liz.  ;D

So I guess that would be a fairly good example of Joes  B:"CAUSING the variance by direct mental intervention"

Then there is a mixture of A:predicting and B:Causing and this might depend an awful lot on how we each view the world and how it works.

If I create my own reality then I would be causing the event in the first place then predicting what it was going to be.

But there's more.....

If there is no time, then everything happens in the now, therefore there is no future to predict or alter as both would need a 'before and after'.

But hey, that's arguable and don't ask me to prove a thing.  ;D

Cheers Liz
 

Fire

New Member
Liz, I think RI is a recent term just applied to a wide variety of 'proactive' mental or psychic practices all of which have been around since time began.  I mean RV as a methodological thing is relatively recent, but use of psi is ancient, whether it is receptive or proactive.

I would question whether another dynamic, such as the infinite probable universe framework, might explain what 'appears' to be RI.  Or, whether various types of psi cause us to act in way or choose times in ways that make something appear to be RI.  But whether it is that, or whether it is just RI, I wouldn't even question whether it *appears* to exist.  It certainly does appear to exist in my own experience, I would only question what reality-model is the underlying reason for the appearance of that effect.  

But, most of the questioning is actually armchair theory anyway, because no matter which theory is the case, if you 'act as if' it is real, you can get results, no matter what principle the universe may be using for it!

It becomes one of those things about the light switch, and not needing to understand the detailed structure of electronics and filaments, as long as you know where the light switch is and how to use it.

Your account about the boy in school is really funny!  I'd say that you communicated with him, and he decided to accept the idea, however, he really was not as interested in you as in the other Liz.  Hmmph!  :mad:

I've had more success in changing peoples' feelings about me by simply generating the feeling I wanted them to have for me, from myself toward them, inside a mental/emotional framework, similar to a healing session.  Usually remotely but it can be done in person where it functions more like a Reiki kind of thing.

What is sort of hilarious is that to me, it is always a sharing, and as such, is a weapon that works on both parties.  

If I had a negative intent, then I'd better hope I have a much stronger ability to withstand or deal with that energy than the person I'm sharing it with, because I'd get an equal dose.

If I am loving, I am as affected by it as they.  I learned this the hard way while actively practicing 'influence' in person with a woman who had become a royal pain in the butt.  I decided I wuld 'make' her love me by basically just attacking her with loving energy lol.  This was years ago... I was younger.  ::)

When we walked into the room she was literally yelling at me about months of resentment.  I sat down, said, "Tell me about it.  I will listen." and worked on her.  She ranted for 15 minutes.  At the end of which she proclaimed that I was angelic, filled with light, and she had never seen that side of me. (Neither had I. Ha! Ha!) We walked out of the room and the other people, who'd given us privacy, looked at her, with her arm around me and her eyes shining, and looked at me, and back at her, and then at me again like they just couldn't believe it.  I didn't say a word to her the whole time.

Unfortunately, the side effect of this was that I was equally in love with HER by that time.  Which really took all the fun out of it since I lost any and all manipulative energy I might have had at the beginning.

It's like that old 'sword of shannarra' fantasy book where the weapon yielded worked on both parties, so if the person using it did not have extreme integrity, it would destroy them too.

I actually think this is often the case in RI, although it depends how its done.  It operates in my experience on the same kind of psychological logic that hypnosis does, where you merely need to feel out (this is where psi skills come in) tendencies, fears or weaknesses or illness in a person, and then you can help heal them--or you can lean on them.  It all comes down to intent.

I find this much easier than RV, it might be because psychologically I don't have the performance-factor that RV brings to me (objectively correct, written down, etc.), or it might be because unlike RV, where I want factual, literal words, in regular psi I sense most things as 'shapes', and I can work with 'shapes' and get the same effect as if I had a word attached to it, but I don't need to worry about getting the info in detail to allow me the words, I just 'feel' what is there and how it is and then interact with it.

But I do believe that you cannot affect another person who does not choose to accept that on a soul level (soul=for lack of a better term).  However our soul seems to live for experience as its own value, not just the fun sort, and accepts all sorts of things we learn from the hard way.

I also believe that whatever we generate, we buy: it doesn't matter whether we think we are generating it 'for someone else' -- whether someone is intending to heal or to harm, the bottom line in my opinion is that we create much if not all of our reality, and everything we create is our own.  Healing heals us; harming harms us.  

Sometimes there might be a willing trade off.  One person may have more ability to withstand certain energies than someone with an obvious weakness in that area; the sender may also be aware of the influx of it and can deliberately deal with it, whereas the target might not be in shape to do that.  

But I think in general, all proactive psi had a great effect on the individual attempting it.  And so, I have a real interest in the kinds of 'intent' for proactive psi that are positive... for obvious reasons.  ;D

Fire

PS This subject invokes such fear in many people that they completely wig out about it, in their own ways. I imagine this topic will end up being one of the more controversial on this board.
 

River

New Member
I'm not sure what I think about this integrity business.

I have come to the conclusion time and again that I only ever get what I really want in life. So I suppose that would have to include results form RI.

Take the boy for example. If that RI had worked my life would have been hell because it turned out that he was a dud. I got what I really wanted rather than what I thought I wanted.

He didn't even bother going for the other Liz after his initial feelings wore off. She was 20 years his senior and they had nothing in common. He didn't even know her, only that she was called Liz.

So we were both saved from my RI. ;)

Or maybe it wasn't RI at all.

If all physical life is a type of reflection of who I am, then is there any point in trying to RI in the first place?

In order to change reality I would have to change myself.

In order to attract that boy to myself by either charm or RI I probably needed to change myself to someone who would have suited him.

So why bother RIing anything to get what we want? Wouldn't it be there in the first place if we really (on a soul level) wanted it?

River
 

River

New Member
Hi energy critter,

I think anything to do with psi type concepts are often hard to explain. Especially because for a lot of us we were not born with the ideas we have now. We have evolved into them and they are still shifting like sands in a dessert.

But talking about it helps to get a firmer grip on our own ideas and gain insight from other peoples perspectives.

The more we talk the better we will understand ourselves and each other.

If we get a little stuck on how to explain something or have trouble understanding what someones else is trying to say it just means we've got more talking to do. And that's great!

River
 

Fire

New Member
Archetype Meditations

Hi River,

Or maybe it wasn't RI at all.  If all physical life is a type of reflection of who I am, then is there any point in trying to RI in the first place? In order to change reality I would have to change myself.
Aha!  Now we're in an area I can wax on about. The above IS actually my personal belief system.  Archetype meditations change me, change the internal blueprint, which can radically change my reality.  I don't NEED to try and 'influence' anybody else.  If I work things out within myself, my reality falls in line.

But curiously, they do so in a way that is quite shamanic--and is NOT pre-defined by me.  Often, it is not that something changes and is obviously changed. It is that it seems like something changes all the way back into my past, and for about 2 days I'm in the twilight zone wondering how this could be possible that (for example) the other person remembers always having adored me when they were a jerk for 26 years previous, and then for a couple days I feel like I remember both pasts, and then if I accept it (that's the shamanic-IF), I come to realize that it was never as bad as I thought between us.. I do vaguely recall it was different once but it doesn't seem like a major thing.

It is usually in a way that in the case of people, either our relationship dramatically improves, or they literally fall out of my life. e.g., a coworker who'd been with our firm 8 years and had a senior position to mine, whom I was meditating on because I couldn't stand the way he attempted to do me harm as part of his self-protection tendencies, I was really doing well after a solid week of meds and truly believed that things would change, and one Friday I was thinking to myself, any moment now, he'll show the amazing change of heart toward me that others had when I'd done these kind of meditations.  Well apparently not, LOL.  But by Monday, he was GONE.  I mean totally gone from the company, never darkened my door again (and I got his job, lol). I was uninvolved, and he was probably better off.

But the thing about the archetype meds is that one is NOT actually trying to influence reality in any specific way, one is simply trying to establish a positive energetic relationship with things in yourself.  HOW the results will turn out, who knows?!  

At one point when I was doing these, my job was p/t and I really needed a better job, and one that I could get to, which meant in the town I was staying in with a friend, as my vehicle (an awesome RV I was living in, while sailboarding daily and playing guitar in the park, given all my time off :)) had been wiped out in a serious car accident (drama queen alert).  

I was meditating on a job and on issues with money.  I was really meditating seriously on this.  10 days later I had a full time job--but it was the same p/t company, which miraculously had a MEGA increase in my pay, PLUS the CEO had arranged a fabulous apartment for me 10 minutes from work (in that other city), PLUS he gave me the company car, a luxury car no less, to drive as my own.  I mean talk about a major change in life circumstance!

But these are not the kind of thing that can be 'proven', given that I am never making a specific request for change, only an attempt to positive integrate with something I'm having trouble with.  How it works itself out, I consider up to my... er, higher self, or God, for lack of a better term.

So why bother RIing anything to get what we want? Wouldn't it be there in the first place if we really (on a soul level) wanted it?
I think there's two ways to look at this.  One is that "everything, at every moment, is exactly as it has chosen to be."  I find that the more I am able to hold that state of mind, to really feel that way about the world and my life, the more I am actually able to make changes in my reality via intent.  I think it might be that this is the truth and that 'holding that focus' actually ALIGNS me with this dynamic in some way.

The second is that if our current reality IS what we have made it, then we are perfectly capable of making it something ELSE--if we choose to do so.  That is where the various "methods of proactive intent" as I would call them, come in.  Whether someone is 'healing their reality' or using 'machineless radionics' or going the opposite route, using 'archetype meditations' to work INside themselves rather than OUTside themselves--I don't think it matters.  I think the outside reflects the inside, and just really focusing our conscious intent in the proper way can have positive changes in our lives.

Fire
 

River

New Member
Hi Fire and energycritter.

Fire I absolutley agree with you.

And because that point of view is relativley new to me, (about 8 years?) I still have a foot in the past which wants to RI something externally to prove it, yet again, to myself. LOL

It's a heady feeling knowing that I can consciously create my world as I go. And given that life can always do with a little ......er........adjusting here and there, it's very handy to know how.  :D

Now we seem to agree that life changes as we change. This leaves the area of scientific study in a bit of a bind.

Scientists in general think their studies are seperate from their personal lives and their own personalities. They go to work each day, preform numerous studies, and never think that they themselves would have any effect on test results.

If what we are saying is right, then the outcome of studies are the direct reflection of the scientist beliefs.  

And that goes a long way in explaining why there are so many conflicting reports on a lot of studies performed in different labs. One lab will come up with one result and another lab will come up with the opposite.  

River
 

Tropicana

New Member
Those two questions of Predicting and Causing are really important. Which is it? I can't say I have anything figured out.
I will say though that I agree with the idea of archetypes and that Predictive Causality is something Radin and others have written about. It is even a part of Chinese philosophical systems. I do not know if we bring the future about or that it must come about because of the synchronicity of our thinking. I do believe this is a great subject to explore. How can proactive PSI be influencing us or we influencing others? How much if any is intentional or unintentional? I don't think that people are aware of their unintentional/intentional awareness enough to know what actually is occuring in everyday life. I think it is there but we just don't realize it.
It is amazing to me think just how much influencing or not influencing we do everyday in our normal everyday interaction with just our families. How much of it profoundly impacts our lives or the lives of those around us? How or does Remote Viewing have the ability to predict or cause what is viewed to come about or was it there all the time and we just had to find it? It is all very interesting and worth the time to see it?
I realize some of this drops off into NLP and other forms of communication but it all is kinda combined.
At least that is what I have been thinking.

If I think a hundred dollars is predictive if it comes to me or is caused by my thinking?

Did my integrity synchronicity predict it or did it cause it?

There are some people who got the hundred dollars not through their integrity but through their lack of integrity. Is their reality or influence greater? ???
 

Mystic_Rhythms

New Member
Hi all-

The very last section of Tropicanas post, plus some of Rivers, kind of wrap up some major philisophical issues I have been wrestling about lately.

To describe by quoting-

If all physical life is a type of reflection of who I am, then is there any point in trying to RI in the first place? In order to change reality I would have to change myself. - River
and

There are some people who got the hundred dollars not through their integrity but through their lack of integrity. Is their reality or influence greater? - Tropicana
This is the thing I am struggling with- if reality is a direct reflection of ourselves, if we have and are what we choose to be... That doesnt leave much room for anyone else. In an odd way, I see myself having met the "right" people to learn Psi and RV the past year. Too many coincidences to be coincidental. Which leads me to the following dilemma, that being...

The world becoming a little more egocentric (to me). If my reality is a direct reflection of who I am, then how does that explain other peoples interactions with me? What about thier realities? What about when the realities differ in opinion? :eek: (or however realities get along. pluralizing reality might be my mistake here ::) )


There is alot of belief system upheaval when one first does RV, I am only a year into it, so I am "re"learning... alot. My philisophical model kinda went out the window on my first solid hit... but its a good thing! ???

Just trying to get a grasp on the concepts here. I guess I dont get the whole multiple free-wills running about concept...

Brain hurts after thinking of all that. :p

MR
 

Fire

New Member
It's really difficult to consider some of these concepts without actually falling onto the negative side, and feeling like who cares about anybody else if it's all me?

For a long time I couldn't wrap my brain around it and in fact, I am still utterly confused about some of this stuff, and maybe that's reasonable, as much just doesn't lend itself to linear/logical thinking. One thing did change the way I perceive all this though.

At first, I was thinking of it like, nothing was real. Everything was a like a sort of... solid hologram that was really just reflecting me. That just didn't work for me, mostly because like you mention, the subject of other peoples' feelings and destinies and so on gets impossibly confusing.

I cannot invalidate the world by assuming it's my reflection. There has to be a different way to perceive that, which makes every thing a positive, something to validate and appreciate, instead.

Later I came to theorize (not originally, just a first for me) that everything that could be, was. My reality certainly did reflect me, however, what it reflected is what I have chosen to experience.

So let's say my neighbor is a real butthead, to use my 6 year old's favorite term. :D It is not that my neighbor is not his own person, with his own decisions and feelings. He is not a mere shadow of me. However, he--like me, like everyone--is infinite. He is simultaneously existing, experiencing, inside infinite probabilities/timelines. So there is a version of my neighbor that is every imaginable thing (including not my neighbor).

Whether I experience this neighbor as a problem, as a benefactor, as a killer, or not even being my neighbor, comes down to me. I could experience another version of him. If I have this one, it is because he reflects some part of me, some belief system or need.

That allowed me to model it in my brain where I was definitely 100% responsible for my reality, and yet, I was not marginalizing the independent reality of others. Others, anything other, is simultaneously totally independent and totally self-created... if you follow the logic above. They are what they choose to be. But the fact that they ARE is what WE have chosen to be.

Fire
 

Fire

New Member
by the way. I've been getting reports from various people on "RI" courses they are taking. The techniques sound exactly like Silva Mind Control, albeit at least 2nd hand, and that's been around for a real long time now.
Fire
 

Tropicana

New Member
Fire and Energy!! Exite the passions...Ha! Mystic- River! "FLOW LIKE WATER" says, Bruce Lee
Great thoughts...

"Later I came to theorize (not originally, just a first for me) that everything that could be, was. My reality certainly did reflect me, however, what it reflected is what I have chosen to experience."-

"That allowed me to model it in my brain where I was definitely 100% responsible for my reality, and yet, I was not marginalizing the independent reality of others. Others, anything other, is simultaneously totally independent and totally self-created... if you follow the logic above. They are what they choose to be. But the fact that they ARE is what WE have chosen to be."-

My Father -in-law, who is a very dear and precious man of 78 years old would agree with these statements. I do as well. When I tell him how great and wonderful things are or how I need help with things emotionally he assures me that I have chosen this "experience."
For me the concept of the "ground of being" is a very interesting issue to life and our connections or lack of connection. To "be" or use the concept of "they are " or "we are" is a great way to discribe things. I like Joe McMoneagle's openness and feedom of thought.
The Ideas of "I am that, I am" come to mind. Or, "I wil be what I will be" Martin Buber's I and Thou, also come to mind. The Japanese and eastern ideas of "nothingness" and D.T. Suzuki's "Isness" also flow in that direction along with Meister Eckhart's Mysticism and a number of great writers. Dr. Alan Wolf and Dr.Dean Radin.
How full life seems with all these "connections" or "sparks" if you will.
Multiple "Free wills" would blow Calvin's mind...yet Calvin has his place....Pun intended if you associate the religious writer with the cartoon !!!
;D
I love the Universalist victorian writer George MacDonald, Love and Farie Tales! Love has to me always been something of an "action" that subjective "sting" or "flame" of passionate "influence" in feeling that drives one to heroism or dispair or snuggling the feet close together under the covers. Yes, it "is" , but, a pardon, is it "nothing?" Remote Influence-Far removed yet touching the nature of what it means to "be"? Love reflected or Projected? Is it a "prediction" or a "cause" ? How fine a subject LIZ!
Thank you![
 

Tropicana

New Member
The Joy of Fishes

Chuang Tzu and Hui Tzu
were crossing Hao river
By the dam.

Chuang said:
"See how free
The Fishes leap and dart:
That is their happiness."

Hui replied:
"Since you are not a fish
How do you know
What makes fishes happy?"

Chuang siad:
"Since you are not I
How can you possibly know
That I do not know
What makes fishes happy?"

Hui replied:
"If I, not being you,
Cannot know what you know
It follows that you
Not being a fish
Cannot know what they know."

Chuang said:
"Wait a minute!
Let us get back
To the original question.
What you asked me was
"How do you know
"What makes fishes happy?"
From the terms of your question
You evidently know I know
What makes fishes happy.

" I know the joy of the fishes
In the river
Through my own joy, as I go walking
Along the same river."

In some strange way I think this applies to our conversation....I think I will take a walk and enjoy the influence....REMOTELY OF COURSE!
 

River

New Member
Hi everyone,

this is a great old discussion we've got happening.

Let me throw in another idea just to complicate matters. :D

What if other people are us........literally.

Think of us as the tips of fingers. We look across the gap between us and think, "Wow, I'm nothing like that thick old thumb yet when I move I affect it some how. Does it have it's own free will or am I the sole influence on it's life?"

And all the while none of the fingers realize that they are part of the one hand that is in fact influenceing how they all act, yet that hand is part of an arm which controls the hand and the arm is part of...................and on it goes.

Just thinking........... ;)

River/Liz
 

Wizard

New Member
Hi Liz

OH YES! i fully support your last post.

:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Allen
----------------------------------------------
http://www.deepawareness.com
 

Wizard

New Member
"..Does anyone think that unconditional love would play a part? .."

Hi energycritter


First - your world mirrors your intentions back at you so what you send out from within will be projected back to you.

project unconditional love and soon you will be surrounded with it.

Second - love and happiness emits the highest vibration rates that are needed to RI reality more powerfully.

love isnt just for mothers and doughrers its also for fathers and sons. :) its for everyone.

love isnt just a dream made in movies thats what many low entities wants you to belive TV and society offen programs our mind to go in the wrong way...

love is real if you know how to find her!

Free your Mind :)

Best Wishes
Allen
--------------------------------------------
http://www.deepawareness.com
 

Tropicana

New Member
::)I think I have been influenced to move to another board.
I think speaking of unconditional love in terms of influence is getting a bit to religious for me. Next thing you know we start talking Jesus and the warm fuzzy world of connection to the comic God of...Then comes the religious thumping of the chest etc. A quote here, a quote there and for me the discription of how reality or the projection of reality is lost to religious jargon.
I did at one time frequent a site that had all kinds of this "Remote influencing" going on.
But , please excuse me , that kind of stuff gives me an extreme stomach ache. If you want to love something unconditionally do it by your actions and mental processes directed to those around you but don't seek to use RI to your own agenda or religious affiliation. If that is the indication here then I have to give myself the boot!
 

Fire

New Member
I'm not a fuzzy-love sort myself frankly. I agree this thread sort of verged off into never-never land LOL. But there are I think nearly 100 people registered now, though the complex is new so it will continue to grow slowly over the next few months. The people here come in all sorts. As many your type as anybody else's I imagine. Threads, like life, take different turns and sometimes you decide you just don't want to follow one anymore. There are several boards and several threads and if one isn't your style, there are surely others.

PS On the top bar with the little icons, if you click on 'notification', you can take OFF notification for any thread you're no longer interested in following.

Fire
 

Tropicana

New Member
Thanks, but I will stay on thread.
I just want to get back to the questions posed by Liz of Prediction or Causation in Remote influencing.
Of course if someone wishes to start a new topic they can. I also thought there was a couple of interesting statements made about multiple free wills that were made.
I would like to hear more on this by those who have thought about the subject of free will and influencing.
RV does tend to warp the issue of free will as well as religious points of view does it not?
There is a book on Super String Theory that I have that postulates many different demensions co-existing at the same time. The idea of many lives or lifetimes being lived at the same time is kinda mind boggling. Not to mention the influence it could have on all of us.
In light also of my own above response. How much influence is self contained or oriented and how much is outside influence coming from someone or something else including, dreams or connective realities from other demensions? How much is just an archetypical representation?
My father in law tends to the idea that we live out archetypes that we have somehow chosen to experience and so are influenced by those things that we wish to live out. Any thoughts? In this way it is both predictive and caused by us.
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
Tropicana,

Seth once said something about, having another 'aspect of us' who 'died' in their physical life would sometimes 'return energy to us'. I remember that got me thinking. I'd had experiences where I finally realized that I was being heavily 'sparked' by a sort of ... evolutionary boundary (consciousness wise) that another aspect of me had clearly crossed, and I seemed to be getting something akin to "side effects" in my own life, from it (good ones for the most part).

A friend of mine had a fascinating dream recently that related to how any given thing in this reality was something else in another reality, and maybe we could 'break the code' on that. I find that a really intriguing idea. It kind of ties into the idea of multiple realities and perhaps multiple selves.

How do we influence ourselves--how does our higher self influence us (assuming that is a singular thing)? How does our future self influence us? I'm not sure we can really divide these things... how would we?

PJ
 

River

New Member
Hi PJ,

I'll make a new topic about that dream I had. It would be interesting to see if others have had similar dreams.

Cheers Liz
 
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