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Remote Influence. Does it exist?

#61
I am not as strong as Ghandi. I do not intend to be assassinated like Ghandi was either for leading the way of the warm pink fuzzies. Yes, it is nice to think in terms of warm pink fuzzies....yes, it is wonderful to send the world light and love and healing (I am part of a Buddhist prayer group).....but I will not bow down and die for a psychopath or sociopath hell bent on destroying my family's lives. That is where I differ from His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. I cannot give in to evil....and refuse for evil to hurt my family.

Such is the price of being in mortal combat.
Leslie,

I agree with you on this point. Gandhi is probably defacto the world's most famous exponent of the warm pink fuzzies, only because the warm pink fuzzies are the only aspect of his life that most people are acquainted with. Most people I know don't understand that Gandhi learned a great lesson from a failed experiment which resulted in the loss of the lives of over a million Hindus. Those people needlessly allowed themselves to be brutally slaughtered becuase they blindly followed Gandhi, and Gandhi told them to do so as a result of his misunderstanding of Ahimsa.

As for the Dalai Lama, there are different levels of meaning to things said. I doubt that he would advise anyone to do the same a Gandhi did in his failed experiment.

Dave
 
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Leslie_Hillerman

Guest
#63
Hi Dave and Trypper!

Thank you Dave...that is true about Ghandi and the Dalai Lama.

Trypper, as to answer your question, I don't have the foggiest idea. I have thought about that for years....wondering....what did I do?...where did I go wrong?....I have even looked at my own belief systems of Karma and wondered what I had done to bring it on.

I really think I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, with people who were just plain nasty but I had to have been there for a reason. I don't believe in totally random events. I think one of my biggest regrets, was not researching things out earlier....so that I may have saved the life of an innocent woman, my classmate. Instead, I watched her die, helpless....knowing something was out of the ordinary but did not know what....feeling the ELF, but not knowing how to deal with it effectively. I beat myself up over it every so often.

I lived but countless others died or went insane. I believe there are countless souls who deserve Medals of Honor for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the Department of Defense. There needs to be a monument in recognition of those who gave their lives so that the D.O.D. could understand their weaponry better. There were a lot of children left without Moms....a lot of lives wasted....in the name of science. We received an apology for the Radiation experiments done in the 50's and 60's.....but there won't be anymore apologies for 50 more years or so for what has happened since.

What a wonderful way though to undermine the confidence of a nation with it's leadership though! Just screw the people....excellent way to get no one to go to the wars you start, now isn't it? It is what destroys the basic fabric of any nation.....and like all the other inhumane things done to other people by their governments.....it adds a total disdain for those in power everywhere. There are Saddam Husseins all over this planet....some better hid than others....and some are in our own backyards and some sit in Church every Sunday and go to confession. What is even more frightening is that they give birth to their clones...and the evil propagates.

LOL.......I promise to get off of my soapbox now!!!!

Granny
 
L

Leslie_Hillerman

Guest
#65
Hi Dave.

Yes, they do. I am trying to stay away from that topic because I do have some very strong opinions that might upset the rest of the populace.

Granny
 
#66
lol karma!
I dont belive in it.

IF everything was created out of some higher order by some higher being, and If we are heer to learn and expereince - why use a system of punichment like karma. make a mistake and bang it will come back and £*#! you up!

If there is a higher order - then being shown your mistakes as per the NDE expereinces makes sense - but karma is just revenge in another name And this doesnt sound very spiritual to me!

daz :)
I'm surprised to hear you say this, Daz! But I'm only surprised because from my limited perspective I believe that karma exists. I think it has an important role in human learning & evolving.

Another influence on my believing it was one of my favorite classes at the Waldorf Inst. in '74. It was called Karma & Reincarnation, and we studied lives of several well-known people and how they evolved & learned thru various lives. We could see how certain things either carried thru or influenced succeeding lives.

We had a clairvoyant prof. whose hobby was studying biographies for this reason  -  he could trace a soul thru various lives. Of course, it was something that a die-hard pragmatist couldn't PROVE, but I sensed the truth behind it anyway. It was SO interesting! And I also have had memories of other lives & have seen how certain things carried thru.

But I suppose it may be more liberating if you choose not to believe in Karma!  ::)

Take care!
Kristen
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
#67
There is another way of looking at karma that oddly, combines both those seemingly opposite views:

1. That you live in what you create and you create what you believe in at fundamental levels, which 'carry through' at a level that plays out in various aspects/lives/realities/times

2. Hence if you believe in Z you will create it, act it out, and get it back in, and people will say, "You did A, so you got Z," but in reality, you both did A and got Z all *because* you believed in Z to begin with

3. That learning/understanding is the real purpose, and so for example if a person put out a lot of Z, but then came to genuinely understand the nature of Z and at that point quit participating in that energy, that they would be free of Z. They would not be 'paying for' all the Z they inflicted on others now or anywhen, here or anywhere. Z would only have been present in their reality because of them; when they changed, it changed.

In short, this concept-model suggests that what some "call" karma and think of as a linear, causual "retribution" system imposed from the outside, can be looked at instead as simply a "you experience what you believe" system, where the results do not come from 'the universe' but from the constant-creation inside yourself.

This allows for a relationship between identities and between experience, but also gives the ultimate power to the here-now of every identity... not some assumed 3rd party spiritual tribunal.

Just 2 cents to the mix.

Best,
Palyne
 
#68
In short, this concept-model suggests that what some "call" karma and think of as a linear, causual "retribution" system imposed from the outside, can be looked at instead as simply a "you experience what you believe" system, where the results do not come from 'the universe' but from the constant-creation inside yourself.

This allows for a relationship between identities and between experience, but also gives the ultimate power to the here-now of every identity... not some assumed 3rd party spiritual tribunal.

Just 2 cents to the mix.

Best,
Palyne
PJ, what you said is similar to what I understand karma to be, only I wouldn't say it is "you experience what you believe". To me it's more like experiencing what you have no control over because you're asleep, so to speak, and you're not aware of what's controlling your every thought and therefore your every move. The way it was explained to me was that samskaras (sp?) (a Sanskrit word that refers roughly to emotional traumas, deeply held beliefs, habits, and maybe a few other things) are embedded in our astral body, or whatever you prefer to call it, and we're basically a slave that acts out mechanically to them until we somehow wake up and manage to rid ourselves of them. It's sort of Gurdjieffesque in some ways. But it is very different from karma like its traditionally taught, and like you said, it "gives the ultimate power to the here-now of every identity" if they can manage to wake up.

Dave
 
#69
3. That learning/understanding is the real purpose, and so for example if a person put out a lot of Z, but then came to genuinely understand the nature of Z and at that point quit participating in that energy, that they would be free of Z.  They would not be 'paying for' all the Z they inflicted on others now or anywhen, here or anywhere. Z would only have been present in their reality because of them; when they changed, it changed.
Yeah. That's how I understand it. In my view anyway, Karma is a part of existence that helps the evolutionary process. And when you "wake up" to or realize something, and get the learning experience from it, you sort of remove yourself from that as reality - as having any effect or influence in your life or lives.

Kristen
 
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Leslie_Hillerman

Guest
#70
Kristen.....HI! (((((((HUG KRISTEN))))))). Long time no hear from!

Well, I am just going to put in 2 cents worth.

The Laws of Physics exist whether we choose to believe in them or not. The Laws of Physics existed well before Mankind arrived. Do the Laws of Physics exist because we choose to believe in them? Do the Laws of Physics exist "within" us and not throughout the physical universe? Is it or has it always been that there are exceptions to the Laws of Physics? Is it that man did not write these down? Is it man that created these laws?

Wondering.

BIG HUGS to everyone.....Granny
 
#71
The Laws of Physics exist whether we choose to believe in them or not. The Laws of Physics existed well before Mankind arrived. Do the Laws of Physics exist because we choose to believe in them? Do the Laws of Physics exist "within" us and not throughout the physical universe? Is it or has it always been that there are exceptions to the Laws of Physics? Is it that man did not write these down? Is it man that created these laws?
Hi Leslie,

- Agreed
- Agreed
- No
- They operate within us and throughout the universe so far as we can tell. (Note the next two answers though.)
- There are so-called anomalies.
- Man has taken note of the so-called anomalies.
- Strictly speaking, no.

Why?

Dave
 
#74
Grandma Clara, my best guess is that woman did.  ;D
You guys are TOO funny! ;) Well, this is quite a mystical topic, and my answer will sound pretty mystical, but then I'm a mystical type ;D.

In my way of seeing it, karma is something that just happens. It's an aspect of life that keeps us for the most part progressing and evolving - even tho it may take MANY life experiences full of back-sliding. The energy you send out presents itself back to you to deal with. Until you've realized or "gotten" the message or lesson and step out of the cycle.

Hey!! Hi Leslie!! Big hug back to you! :D

Kristen
 
#75
The energy you send out presents itself back to you to deal with. Until you've realized or "gotten" the message or lesson and step out of the cycle.
This is how karma is traditionally understood, but to me it's more harmful than it is helpful.

All wisdom traditions that I'm aware of warn us to "judge not" and to "know thyself". If we think of karma in terms of positive (good) and negative (bad) energy then we're judging everything, and we all know that everyone has a different standard to judge by. I think of karma as our own unique collections of stumbling blocks that keep us from having a higher level of consciousness. For me, one of the problems with the traditional explanation of karma is that while we're busy judging what's right and what's wrong we don't realize that some of the things we've judged as either good or right are in fact some of the largest stumbling blocks we could ever add to our collection with regards to consciousness. They're subtle and very alluring, and prevent us from "knowing ourselves".

It's a big subject.

Dave
 
#76
All wisdom traditions that I'm aware of warn us to "judge not" and to "know thyself". If we think of karma in terms of positive (good) and negative (bad) energy then we're judging everything, Dave
Hi Dave! You're right, big subject! ;). And so many of us have a different take on it. I don't feel like judging has anything to do with karma. It's simply, in my view, that the energy you put out - in whatever way it is - comes back to you. Sort of the "as you sow so shall you reap" type thing. SO the good you do - the kindness and consideration that you put out - also returns to you. I feel like it can be "instant karma', meaning that it comes back to you during this lifetime. Or it comes in another lifetime. Sometimes good things youve done; the kindness, happiness or love you've shared, comes back in an easy life and/or even physical beauty.

But like you said, it's a big subject!

Take care!
Kristen
 
#77
Kristen,

Yes, it's pretty big to discuss in a format like this one. You're right, we all have our different perspectives on it. I agree with you that sometimes we can have instant karma, even if we define karma differently.

Dave
 
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Leslie_Hillerman

Guest
#78
Howdy you all from the great expanse of the high desert!!!

Granny just has to adjust her bifocals.....adjust her teeth....and smile! :)

Is Karma judgement or is it Cause and Effect? The Buddhists always stress "right action". I think the idea here is to have a conscience, treat each other decently and do what is considered right (not perhaps by social standards) but by how you would want to be treated. Unfortunately the world is just not that way.....and my combat instructor turned the Golden Rule around to "Do unto others, before they do unto you." (((((BIG HEAVY SIGH)))))))

My daughter who is studying Physics right now engaged me in a lively conversation all the way to the next town yesterday....on the subject matter of Karma. In fact the little dear wants to join in.

Granny
 
#79
My daughter who is studying Physics right now engaged me in a lively conversation all the way to the next town yesterday....on the subject matter of Karma. In fact the little dear wants to join in.
Granny
So what are your daughter's views of Karma, Lesie?!
Kristen ;)