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Retrocausality

Loraine

New Member
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=106417645839&h=gJSg-&u=43yG7&ref=nf

I've been quietly murmuring for some time that it helps my understanding of RV process to assume retrocausality is a given. Looks like it's now time to shout it from the rooftops. I can't claim to follow the detail of the math but the broad thrust and bottomline implications of this work directly impact RV theory.

With best intent
Loraine





corrected typo in title to aid future searching
 
Re: Retocausality

Loraine,

Glad to hear you got strong positives from that piece! I couldn't really get anything from the Abstract, never mind follow the math - at all!

The thing is, there are so many speculations and theories out there about TOE, string theory, quantum mechanics and consciousness, QM and psi, holographic brain and universe, and many theories and speculations with longer names that I don't think I'll join you on the rooftops just yet.

E.g. a QCD (Quantum ChromoDynamics) site:
http://www.ingeneza.com/e_ingeneza.html

One accomplished physicist (and remote viewer) whose judgment I respect says he hasn't seen anything that suggests to him that we/they are on track with anything demonstrable - yet. We may not have the physics and math tools / paradigm to be able to approach it at this point. Not that people shouldn't try...

For myself, as a layman, I have been focusing on reading mainstream neuroscience and cognitive science to see if there is any correlation with remote viewing processes. In those arenas, what comes first to mind in this connection are the experiments by Benjamin Libet which indicate a kind of subjective displacement in time:

In the 1970s, Libet was involved in research into neural activity and sensation thresholds. His initial investigations involved determining how much activation at specific sites in the brain was required to trigger artificial somatic sensations, relying on routine psychophysical procedures. This work soon crossed into an investigation into human consciousness; his most famous and controversial experiment demonstrates that the unconscious electrical processes in the brain called Bereitschaftspotential (or readiness potential) discovered by Lüder Deecke and Hans Helmut Kornhuber in 1968 precede conscious decisions to perform volitional, spontaneous acts, implying that unconscious neuronal processes precede and potentially cause volitional acts which are retrospectively felt to be consciously motivated by the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

Which adds another wrinkle to understanding time. :)

Jon
 

Gene_Smith

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Retocausality

Jon K said:
..................................................................
In the 1970s, Libet was involved in research into neural activity and sensation thresholds. His initial investigations involved determining how much activation at specific sites in the brain was required to trigger artificial somatic sensations, relying on routine psychophysical procedures. This work soon crossed into an investigation into human consciousness; his most famous and controversial experiment demonstrates that the unconscious electrical processes in the brain called Bereitschaftspotential (or readiness potential) discovered by Lüder Deecke and Hans Helmut Kornhuber in 1968 precede conscious decisions to perform volitional, spontaneous acts, implying that unconscious neuronal processes precede and potentially cause volitional acts which are retrospectively felt to be consciously motivated by the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet
...................................................................

Perhaps free will is an illusion.

Gene
 

Glyn

New Member
Re: Retocausality

katzenhai2 said:
Perhaps free will is an illusion.
...and the future is fixed. :eek:
Has anyone here come across any instance where someone has announced in advance (and it's on record), that they dreamed they were going to actually die in a plane crash (or other bad accident), that they had already arranged, so they decided not to travel, and the accident actually happened?

I only say that because most precog accounts are where people have dreamed of crashes but not of their own death. I am just curious to know whether someone could actually precog their own death. If so then it may point to the future not being fixed....or not. ;D

Cheers,
Glyn
 

Tunde

"Keep Moving Forward"
Re: Retocausality

The future is certainly NOT fixed lol There would be no point in us being here if it was.
You could also forget about belief systems such as Karma if you subscribed to the future fixed
theory ;)

Check out a future life progression (FLP) book titled Destiny Of Souls - Its makes the case both for and against the fixed future idea. Very thought provoking stuff.

Regards
Tunde
 

RedCairo

do you ever dream you're someone else?
It's a mindcruncher for sure. Many years ago when I was having a lot of spontaneous experiences, some related more to the nature of reality than anything else, I had a short time (maybe 20 minutes) where I had a sort of epiphany and felt I understood it all. There was absolutely free will. And there was absolutely destiny. And they were absolutely the same thing. I know this is impossible based on the meaning of the words in our language, but you know how the whole bag of "mystical insight" goes, you can't usually put it in words that make any sense, and when you do they often sound completely contradictory.

Later, after a different sort of experience, I "realized" that everything in the universe that possibly could exist, did exist; what we are doing is creatively wending our way through a path, and we create nothing except 'the route' -- much like a character in a video game, as I modeled it at the time (DOOM 3 as a spiritual analogy -- who knew? ;D ). I'd been stumbling over problems with grokking the Sethian theories of the nature of reality and multiple probabilities. I was even experiencing all kinds of stuff related to shifting timelines and more -- paranormal activity is such fun for a medical model skeptic, I'm lucky I finally opened my mind rather than checked myself into an asylum -- but still, I would try to mentally work out probability paths, the fractal of them basically, and it just wasn't workable. Most people think, "Oh, well you make decision A or decision B." But the theory is much deeper than that. The timing of the chemicals in your brain could be a split second different than they are, and every part of the body like this, and more, so that merely standing still for 30 seconds actually involves an enormous amount of pure "potential". Which is when I realized everything already existed.

Anyway, so later I was thinking back on the free will/destiny experience, and it occurred to me that if everything already existed, then technically, no matter what decision I made, it really was destiny, because upon making it I was now in the probability where it was. That wasn't any kind of insight, just thinking based on the previous two experiences.

Who knows? I find it all fascinating.

The more precog RV I do at any one time the more I see the 'side-effects' of its change in my belief system running through my life, not just the viewing.

PJ
 

Mycroft

Active Member
Re: Retocausality

Glyn said:
Has anyone here come across any instance where someone has announced in advance (and it's on record), that they dreamed they were going to actually die in a plane crash (or other bad accident), that they had already arranged, so they decided not to travel, and the accident actually happened?
How big of an example would you like?
Only two FBI agents showed up for work at the Murrah Federal Building the day it was bombed, reportedly they were both former bodyguards of Bill Clinton.

During 911, there should have been 38,000 people in the towers when the first aircraft hit. Thousands did not show up for work that day..

Agreed, it would be very hard to find an example of where someone purposefully avoided doing something on a premonition. But on the other hand life and death scenarios are played out thousands of times a day. When someone avoids pulling into an intersection when the light changes green only to have a truck run the light long over due.

My grandmother told me about a terrible tragedy that would take place in my life who the person was and their connection to me. That the person would die as the result of an accident. Over twenty years later I was laying in bed suffering from terrible back pain, in the middle of all the suffering I had a sudden flash of the discussion. Roused myself out of bed and limped to the balcony to save the person from perishing. I saved the person twenty years ago and am absolutely certain, this was the person and instance my grandmother was referring to.

I have had many examples of this in my life including knowing which day I was supposed to have a car accident and avoiding it.

There are still several things yet to unfold in my life from either visions that I have personally had or those that were told to me, including the room, fixtures, weather, position of my body and approximate age of my death. Not many people can say they've already seen their own death. This came to me when I was in my early 20's, my parents were alarmed at the time until I told them how old I would be. Most parents would have simply blown it off but mine couldn't. I was the one, even though we were Catholic they bought the Kreskin's ESP game for, I mean doesn't every family have someone that can read the signs?

Mycroft
 

Tunde

"Keep Moving Forward"
PJ I think you have the right idea. Everything that ever
was or ever will be already exists. Iike you, I was
Influenced a lot with the works of seth and similar sources
Of information relating to NDE or life after death research and
Have alwas been fascinated by how we allegedly choose our future
incarnations and see the critical events a chosen body will
Experience BEFORE we decide to incarnate into that body. You have free will
To either accept these future life choices or reject them which to me
Means that the future is indeed fixed to some degree we unfortunately do not
Have access to see how everything will play out but it looks like some beings or advanced
Guides if you will can see these alternate routes or as I call it, the matrix tapestry all at once.
What seems to keep things flowing is our free will to create and experience all that is or whatever will be
Through out the universe and beyond.
In short everything that will ever happen to you or has happened
already someone or something knows about it.

That's my theory for today, of course that could
All change tommorow lol

Tunde
 

daz

Remote viewer, author, artist and photographer.
Staff member
didn't i say in previous threads we have set goals on a path thru life like a set 'destiny' and I was argued with ;)

Its why I feel that however hard some of us try to win the lotto - it was just never in the cards as they say for us to do so. Yes we have some choice - but I also belive that we have some equal balance of life goals or destiny to balance it.

daz
 

Tunde

"Keep Moving Forward"
Daz
Yep but too many people play the 'destiny or fate' card when things don't work out for them
As they hoped for such not being able to predict lotto which is extremely difficult to
do anyway. I believe in the near future predicting numbers will be
achievable and make lottery gaming redundant :)
We are laying the groundwork today who knows what we will
Be capable of in the years to come.

Regards
Tunde
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
Well I think of it kinda like genetics. We walk into this life with a big glob of probabilities. Of those, a certain % are "activated". And that is what we deal with. We wake up in the morning a sorta-vaguely-almost-white-girl because that's genetic. We are better at logic than at tetris, better at recognizing voices than faces, and for those with that experience I expect it's pretty much genetic in base. You might call it destiny from the other side, the causal side.

On the other hand, we have the ability to activate or change our experience based on genetics as well. Certain environmental conditions (and that includes psychology and it especially includes nutritional intake) can trigger changes or deviations in how our genetics play out. We can all eat far too much sugar (carbohydrate) from birth to age 35, but some people will get cancer vs. schizophrenia vs. obesity vs. diabetes vs. early alzheimers vs. other options from the same nutritional cause but different genetic handling of it. We can also put ourselves in highly stressful situations that cause or invoke variance, sometimes not only based on genetics but based on how experience activated our genetics in the past. So for example in a threatening (and especially chronic threatening) situations, many people dissolve, collapse, or otherwise flip out; I actually become far more productive and focused, because in childhood that's the environment I learned to adapt to and rules I learned to work within, and it's partly my genetics and how they cause me to react to some things at play in that. Eg some people both in childhood and adulthood would have a very different response to the same situation than I do, innately.

But just because genetics help 'explain' why factor X is in place in a person does not mean the person cannot change that factor -- depending on what it is. I don't think I can change my skin color (nobody gets whiter except Michael ;-)) (RIP buddy). But of the mass glob of genetics I got, only some are activated because only some have needed to be or have been by my mental focus.

I suspect (here is where we get into mysticism) that archetype work (my favorite hobby, jungian/shamanic stuff) can cause substantial changes inside us and in the reality outside us, a reflection of us so both actually change. I think it is entirely possible that in doing this kind of thing we are working much more with "the larger glob" of our genetics and not merely what has been activated so far. In a video game you might compare this to playing with the full potential of the character rather than just what armor and weapons and powers they have at hand at the moment. To varying degrees it's a little like defrag on the hard drive; some genetic blocks are fixed in place and not changing (I'll never be taller than 5'6 probably given I'm 43!); while the rest can be gathered in fragmented pieces from all over the place inside me, combined cohesively, and re-written to record in a neat and more elegant, better-accessible fashion.

So finally getting to the point of the topic, I suspect that even if certain things seem like unchangeable destiny (eg I'm a little bit Cherokee and that ain't changing), that doesn't mean that we do not as conscious humans have the ability to invoke other aspects of ourselves to change our focus (I can focus on the black-Irish (Northern Ireland) part of myself instead) (or even how I react to, model, or implement that "unchangeable fact" can vary). Most things are not so hard-coded as this example, so there's a ton of flexibility.

From the time I was 5 years old I knew there was a certain thing I was 'born to do'. My entire life was geared to that career. I was a maniac. When I was 16 I had a few hundred songs in a binder and was a guitar/vocals/songwriter freak for years. In my early 20s, during a break I took in Los Angeles to focus on work + hypnosis/NLP studies (to 'deal with' my lousy childhood in myself, not counting the 4.5 hours of commute this required per day), and after two years of sleeping about 4 hours a night, having constant chronic stress, eating once a day at Del Taco at 1am (the only thing open and on my way in my schedule), sleeping instantly after, etc. I'd so trashed my hormonal balance, I gained so much so fast it was almost awe inspiring--and was so fried and focused that in some bizarre way I really hardly noticed until it was too late. And it didn't budge, despite diet/exercise routines that my friends lost brilliantly on. As science research shows, you can hardly make people get fat let alone keep them fat on purpose; it requires hormonal differences which I certainly invoked in my genetics via the "environmental" conditions I imposed on myself in my type-A-overdrive. Anyway so due to these changes I wouldn't leave the house hardly let alone get onstage. Since this wiped out the career that had been my whole life focus, I came about an inch from putting a bullet in my head over it. I finally got over my drama-queen pity (mostly by deciding that joining a nunnery or losing a limb in a car accident could have had an equally drastic effect on my life, and other people aren't babies and deal with those things ok) and got on with my life, and was finally able to just "let go" of my lifetime obsession, and let it be, truly. To just release that 100%.

And I had a total mystical experience after that where I just suddenly saw the whole path of my life. Like a super-fast life-review of sorts I saw how all the events from early childhood on had played into that, and how circumstance and luck, all the older fab musicians who gravitated to me kindly, all the things that inspired me, were part of a 'pattern' that wasn't any accident at all. And I saw the whole path and that it was, in fact, what you might call destiny; I had often fought with myself over was-I-deluded vs. was-I-destined but at that point I saw that it really was part of some higher-self plan and was and would have unfolded in a certain way. But my abrupt decision to leave my karate dojo for a hypnosis school and add massive commute time to my daily schedule, and the massive psychological turbulence unleashed by really intense hypnotic and other work on myself to 'deal with' the fallout from my upbringing, set off a whole cascade of other variables that had not been in place until then. It literally changed my destiny. Not just due to something like body weight but for other reasons too; I no longer had the kind of focus-drive I had before that time, because I didn't have the "demons driving me" (you might say) that I had, yet still wasn't really healthy enough to have that kind of great drive for positive reasons. I could see that it "could, should and would have been" had I stayed on a certain path; but that I had chosen to change that path. And that was perfectly all right.

I once posted of an experience years later where in a vivid dream I went through the events of my entire life, and then was given the option to shift something that would radically change the outcome of who I was, albeit being less pleasant experientially. I chose that, and woke up--to realize that the incredibly detailed vivid memories of my life in the dream were the same up until about age 9 when my mother died, at which point they started to vary more and more until by around age 13 they were a completely different life from then on (I was 30 when that happened).

I consider both of these experiences to be examples of using 'free will' to 'change set destiny'. Obviously unprovable; it's all mystic stuff.

But I still suspect, due to the insight noted previously, that my current destiny is just as much destiny within the framework where I am sitting, as the previous thing was. It's like every decision shifts the monopoly square we are sitting on. I am still the top hat whether I'm on baltic avenue or park place, but my 'destiny based on my genetics and environment and behaviors' is likely to be different depending on which probability(square) I am "within" when I make that same decision.

I really shouldn't be talking about this stuff so early without more caffeine.
 

katzenhai2

Ambassador
Well, the future isn't fixed. But what we do here WILL FIX the future. So in the end its unavoidable what we had done in the past. I know it sounds crazy. I don't believe in destiny as Daz pointed out. Everyday and every minute we chose our next step. BUT when we could view the future 100% we would see it as it unfolds, unchangeable. Isn't that logical? We only have then the paradox (or how we think about it) if the future can be changed when we know it. But thats impossible, because if we view something and try to change it and it will not occur - have we changed the future or was our viewing plainly wrong? The same chicken and egg problem with Remote Influencing - influenced or viewed in advance?

I think we can't solve this problem (yet) and therefore shouldn't limit ourselves with ideas like destiny.
I believe we are here not really to make a future - but instead to find out HOW we came here to this point. Like a journey back into the past (time flowing not from past to future but otherwise around) without the knowledge we once had: A point in future knowing anything about this journey. We forgot it - for whatever reason - and try to understand it through own experience.

Like in the Film Matrix (though I had this idea earlier) when the oracle says (loosely quoted): "You are not here to have a decision, you've already done it, but you are here to understand WHY you chose this way."
 

Mycroft

Active Member
PJ said:
I really shouldn't be talking about this stuff so early without more caffeine.
If you ever decide to take the ethnobotanical approach to Shamanism, you'll need to use the plants that are available to Europeans because the South American variety will have almost no effect except to give you that bloated full body load effect. Again genetics. [ I'm only talking about the Master Teacher Plants and not the funny stuff, everyone gets off on those ]

We wake up in the morning a sorta-vaguely-almost-white-girl because that's genetic.
Correct, but it is much more than that, the individual actually has to reintegrate themselves back into their body.

One of the reasons that we feel out of sorts and a very brisk nap will make things all better. We leave our body and reset or reintegrate ourselves back into our bodies.

As far a bodily changes, don't buy into the ancestry story, so an so had this disease at a certain age etc. This is one of the reasons we are hear to stop the repetition and learn from it. Every cell in your body changes every 8 months. Don't forget to take your Cat's Claw supplement.

The most damaging thing you can possibly do is read something like Suzanne Somers' book on aging. I've seen a woman age herself over thirty years in two weeks from reading that garbage. Her story is NOT 'your story'.

Lastly make sure that the posting that I quoted gets into your book. Seems like there are only a few of us comfortable enough with life to write about true events.

Mycroft
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
Oh yeah, with my brain's native pharmacopia, like I need drugs. ;D :D

(What I really need is the drug that makes you "shut the f--- up and sit down and relax" and probably everything in my life would improve at that point. Cosmic states of mind and hyperdrive, I have those covered already. ::) )
 

Mycroft

Active Member
PJ said:
Oh yeah, with my brain's native pharmacopia, like I need drugs. ;D :D

(What I really need is the drug that makes you "shut the f--- up and sit down and relax" and probably everything in my life would improve at that point. Cosmic states of mind and hyperdrive, I have those covered already. ::) )
That is the easiest one yet. Ice Cream! Ice Cream is usually eaten at parties, birthdays, graduations, weddings, graduations, promotions and other celebrations. What happens is serotonin is created in the body by the replicative act of eating ice cream, making you happy. Serotonin is used to make melatonin (which can also be made by taking Vitamin D or standing in the sun for 20 minutes). Melatonin in turn helps you sleep.

So eat Ice Cream! Be happy and sleep good too!

Mycroft
 

PJ

Administrator
Staff member
Ah... something far more inspiring and useful to me than even a medicine cabinet... "rationalization" for high-carb foods. ;D ;D ;D Thanks!!
 
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