pjrv : Messages : 1830-?003 of 4038 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/1830?? )
?
 ?3:33:34

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------

#1830
 	From: "Linda & John Garvey" 
Date: Mon Dec ?3, ?00? 1?:34 pm
Subject: Conscious/Unconscious (was Re: Re: cartoon crash site? ) 	linda_g7us



>I don't know that we're ever supposed to completely
>understand in conscious, rational terms.  In shamanic
>cultures, knowledge is often experiential and not
>analytical.  If you have a dream, you don't pick it
>apart, you dance it for the group.  You bring the power
>of the experience into your waking life, without
>logical understanding.  Instead of trying to translate
>the subconscious into conscious terms, you try to enter
>its world and bring some of the ineffable qualities of
>it back with you.

Hi Karl --

This really does resonate with me -- bringing
the right-brain experience of the dream(s? ) into
waking life, rather than trying to anlayze
(left-brain? ) them.

>(Karl? )
>What really goes against my grain is the
>idea that it would be good to train the subconscious to
>speak the language of the conscious mind.  It may be
>possible to do that, and it might make a person a
>super RVer; I don't know.  But it seems to me to be
>like taking a poet and making him do technical writing.

I like that anology, and was thinking something
similar as I read the first part of your post. :? )
It might not help with RV, but I suspect it could
help with psi abilities and development in
general.  (Actually, I have been finding this to
be the case with myself.? )

Linda G

"The distinction between past, present and future
is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one."
-- Albert Einstein --

	
#1949

Date: Sat Jan 4, ?003 9:40 pm
Subject: Psyche-building 	dennanm



I'm catching up while I take a sanity break from work, here...

Hi Linda,

> It might not help with RV, but I suspect it could
> help with psi abilities and development in
> general.  (Actually, I have been finding this to
> be the case with myself.? )

Much of the thinking I do is as much along the lines of how to
approach the psychological aspect of psi as psi itself.  I think this
is because I have always been fascinated with the mind, and changing
the mind; I was very involved in hypnosis study and practice for many
years as part of that interest, as well as a ton of self education in
the psychology subject in general.

Night before last I played "Battleship" with my ex, who is staying
here for a couple weeks to see the kid (and now yet more, since he
missed his bleepin' plane, sigh!? ).  This is like the ultimate dowsing
game!  I would work to 'feel' where on the board his ship might be.
Several times I nailed a ship out of the blue - not impossible to do
by chance obviously - but I thought, what a great instant-feedback
kind of exercise. :-? )  Funny thing was I was more likely to nail a
ship when there were say, 11 chances out of 90, than I was when there
was one out of 3 -- when I'd already hit a ship and then had to
decide which direction it was going to get the rest of it.  I
attributed this with curiousity to some AOL on my part - my brain was
then involved, which it really wasn't much in the first part.

(Well, it's not double-blind as the other person is in the room with
you, but dowsing, alas, is seldom done even blind, not sure why.
It's just not real common -- I think that is common in a lot of psi
work -- one of the distinctive things about RV of course is the
science background which gave rise to the RV 'protocol' which
includes that.? )

I've been pursuing my concept of 'Aspect RV', which is not so much a
method of RV but rather, a psychological+psi exercise.  I think the
first value of it is more psychological but in the end, the result
could be more 'fluency' with oneself in psi operation.  The goal not
so much being to get the information (end result? ) as it is to get
practice tuning into a lot of aspects of oneself -- or you might just
say "points of view", we are not talking about identities generally --
  for that kind of information.  Experience, not end-result, but I
think the experience could be useful to one's psi work.

I like the idea of occasionally experimenting with different forms of
psi -- different RV methods, but also different things entirely, such
as Tarot or scrying or whatever.  They all seem to bring out
different aspects of us.

It seems if one could develop some facility in a variety of methods,
it would be interesting to do your RV targets,

I have a pool set up where if I want, I can put multiple little
copies of the print of the feedback photo/text in with the index card
in the security envelope (which can be drawn before or after the
session? ).  Haven't bothered yet but I think I'm going to make a bunch
of dupes like that, and then after doing a session, keep one FB for
the book and write the target# on the index card and throw it back in
the pool -- but this time toss it in the pool for scrying, or tarot,
or whatever -- so I'd get it double blind from that one as well.
Obviously one would have to do a significant amount of practice to
ever get anywhere with this method.  But it would allow an individual
to see what kind of data they get on the same target using different
methods.

Just some thoughts...

Regards,
PJ

	
#1951
 	From: "intuitwolf " 
Date: Sat Jan 4, ?003 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: Psyche-building 	intuitwolf



> the pool -- but this time toss it in the pool for scrying

PJ, have you done much with scrying? If so, do you mind describing how
you go about it? What do you use? I have a cooper bowl. I know some
people use water, or a mirror. Do you get primarily visual data or is
it  more a focus tool and the data comes in much as RV data?

I've only tried it a few times and been interrupted every time.
Session break! There's something about it that feels odd to me. . .
like I'm not sure what's supposed to happen - true with all new things
I suppose. With meditation you don't look for anything to happen. And
I suppose that's what makes me uncomfortable with it. It isn't
structured like RV, or tarot or runes or IChing - or the healing work
-- it's just a sort of waiting.

Any guidelines or thoughts you can offer are appreciated.
Shelia

	
#1957
 	From: "Nita Hickok" 
Date: Sun Jan 5, ?003 10:53 am
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	nitahickok



Hello Sheila
    The information opens up on a wider level because there is a
different feel to the signal line. You access it through the element
that you are using. Tarot cards have symbology, as do the runes and I-
ching. They can get really complex even though the runes and tarot
both have a yes and no.
    The bowl with water or anything else is a focus point. The
interesting thing is that you have a tendancy to be able to read
writing and not get aol's. It is like watching a little movie because
you are used to seeing tv and movies in a focus point and it comes
easier somehow for a lot of people.
    You can have a focus point with anything coffee in a cup, and
learn to develop the images in your minds eye then it is clairvoyance
or remote viewing or whatever you want to do with it.
    Burning Myrrh also is supposed to help with prophetic visions and
clearing the energy. It is just window dressing to get your mind in
the mood. The important thing is to use your mental muscles not
trying to strain your eyes to see what is in the bowl.
    Most people squint their eyes and glare at the place the images
are supposed to appear and add more force of thought. The best thing
to do is to link the bowl to the energy of the place or people you
are trying to see. The bowl will reflect what they are doing as if it
is a mirror.
    NIta

	
#1960
 	From: greenmn900...
Date: Mon Jan 6, ?003 9:30 am
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	greenmn900...



Nita,

> You wrote:
> Most people squint their eyes and glare
> at the place the images are supposed to
> appear and add more force of thought. The
> best thing to do is to link the bowl
> to the energy of the place or people you
> are trying to see. The bowl will reflect
> what they are doing as if it is a mirror."

I agree with most of your post.  However, I don't think the "mirror" metaphor
is quite right.  At least it's not for me.  In RV, I often get visuals that
are mirror-images; that is, what is actually on the left will seem in my mind
to be on the right and vice versa.  But in scrying, that has never happened.
If I see something in the ball (I use a black crystal ball? ) that is on the
right side, when I get feedback, it will really be on the right side.  I see
the actual image and not a mirror-image.  Why there is a difference between
closed-eye visuals when I do RV and open-eye visuals when I do scrying, I
don't know.  But that's how it is for me.  Do you actually see a mirror-image
when you scry?  How about when you RV?

Best Regards,
Don

	
#1965
 	From: "Nita Hickok" 
Date: Mon Jan 6, ?003 10:05 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	nitahickok



Hello Don
    I meant mirror image as in it mirrors their actions. I did not
mean that it reversed the way it was seen as if in a real mirror. I
see things about the same in rv. I seem to have my aol's be the whole
image most of the time in the ARV that I have been doing.
    I have been doing targets for Marty's project for quite a while
now.
    Nita

	
#1961
 	From: "intuitwolf " 
Date: Mon Jan 6, ?003 1?:06 am
Subject: Re: Psyche-building 	intuitwolf



> Nita wrote
> The bowl with water or anything else is a focus point. The
> interesting thing is that you have a tendancy to be able to read
> writing and not get aol's.

Being able to read writing would be a plus. Have you used scrying in
the context of remote viewing - being blind to the target? just using
the coordinate number/letters?

>  The important thing is to use your mental muscles not
> trying to strain your eyes to see what is in the bowl.

I don't have a problem with that part of it - I've done some serious
candle gazing. I meditate, so I know how to just relax and wait but I
did wonder if I should be doing anything else in particular.

Don's comment: "Another difference in scrying is that it seems to take
longer for the data flow to start than it does with RV. " answers my
'how long should I wait question'. I felt I must not be doing it right
because it didn't happen quickly for me.

And I think I have just one other [probably BIG] problem with it. I've
had a few mirror experiences and have been told a few that were really
hair raisers! and I think I'm just blocking myself with this
particular medium. Go figure! After all the other mediums that don't
give me a twinge I get spooked by this one. :-? )

So, I'm wanting to gather information from folks who've had successful
experiences with scrying and decontaminate myself by approaching it
from an informed position.

Thanks to both of you,
Shelia

	
#1966
 	From: "Nita Hickok" 
Date: Mon Jan 6, ?003 10:14 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	nitahickok



Hi Sheila
    I really don't need a mirror anymore except to draw influences
into the physical realm. I just use my minds eye. I do a lot of
astral projection work and OBE work in the things I do for others.
    I have used RV co-ordinates double blind and it is great for
adding extra information by using the different methods. I do not
consider it rv but sometimes I feel getting the information is the
important part.
    I have always had very good results with the mirrors. I have used
coffee in coffee cups. It has always come easily for me and I don't
get symbolic information. I always felt trying to figure out
allegorical and symbolic meanings just meant I wasn't getting things
clearly.
    I think that if mirrors bother you then you should try crystal
balls or bowls of water or some other technique. The important part
is praying where the mirror is attuned to the higher forces and
nothing of lower vibrations of energy can get through to harm what
you are trying to do.
    Nita

	
#1963
 	From: greenmn900...
Date: Mon Jan 6, ?003 ?:?9 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	greenmn900...



Hi Sheila,

Since you've got experience with candle meditation, scrying will probably
come easy to you.  In fact, some people scry with a candle (candle-gazing? ).
Which is something I want to try.

I've done a little over 100 scrying sessions to-date.  All of them but one
have been double blind and that one was single blind.  I use the same
protocol as I do with RV, sealed envelopes, the works.  My results aren't as
good as they are with RV, but they are getting better all the time.  Over the
last 6 months or so, it;s been about equal, so my poor results may have just
been me trying to get used to doing it in new way in the beginning.

What I do is just kind of gently look at the crystal ball until my vision
goes out-of-focus. I don't really stare at it in any kind of intense way.
When I first started doing it, an image of dark grey fog or smoke would
usually appear just before the target images did.  It was so sudden, it
scared the hell out of me the first time it happened! lol!  But I don't get
the fog anymore for some reason.

The information usually takes at least 5 minutes or so and sometimes even
longer before it starts.  I've found that the more relaxed I am, the deeper
my meditation before I really start opening to the target, the quicker the
images come.

I've also found that just slightly darker than normal room lighting seems to
work well.  It doesn't really have to be very dark.

I've also noticed that the images tend to be more literal and less symbolic
than with RV.  Also, in the beginning, images was all I could get.  As time
went on however, I started to get feelings and concepts along with the images
so that I understood what they meant in a more specific way.

One of the hardest parts for me was stopping to write or sketch the
information I was getting, and then getting started again.  It seemed like it
took forever to start getting images again after looking away to write or
draw.  But, as time went on, that became easier too, and it's not really a
big deal now.

The images themselves seem to appear in the air between myself and the ball.
They also seem bigger than the ball.  My crystal ball is about 5-6 inches
high and sometimes the images will seem to be a couple feet in height and
width.  One of the hard parts is kind of like OBEs, when it first works for
you, you're often so excited by it that you lose the image immediately!  This
was another problem I had when I first started scrying.

I try to do 1-? scrying sessions per week but I usually got in more like 1
every two weeks because I'm also trying to keep up lots of daily RV practice,
too.  I think you'll find that it's not really much different than RV (well,
it may be for you, since you use CRV? ).  But, there's nothing to be scared of,
especially if all you are looking for is just a remote viewing-type target
and not trying to speak with dead ancestors or anything like that.  I hope
some of this helps.  Good luck.

Best Regards,
Don

	
#1967
 	From: "intuitwolf " 
Date: Tue Jan 7, ?003 1?:?4 am
Subject: Re: Psyche-building 	intuitwolf



Thank you Don; that was excellent and full of information. I too had
the startle response to my first few OBEs. Actually every once in
while I still do - usually only when it happens too fast before I'm
prepared to find myself so suddenly out there.

The comments about the scale of visual images was interesting. And
just as with OBEs I can understand what you're saying about the
excitement factor.

I will start with simple meditation as you suggest and then move
forward. Oh, and don't worry I do not get into contacting dead
relatives. . . I figure they are too busy to be bothered with idle
curiosity. We already have a dream passageway where we meet whenever
they have something to say to me. It's easier on the nerves for both
sides. :-? )

Thanks again,
Shelia

	
#1964
 	From: Ken Burns 
Date: Tue Jan 7, ?003 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	mesundo



Hi Shelia,

I was gazing at a mirror one time and my face vanished; except for my
mustache. It seemed to be 'floating',
because as I would move my head a little, the mustache would move around
in the mirror. All of a sudden,
the mustache vanished and a grotesque looking face appeared.

My heart started pounding  and I either heard a voice or it was a 'high
voltage' thought that said ; "Ken, you
have to learn how to control your breathing". I have read and come to
believe that for every emotion, there
is a corresponding breathing pattern. So if we can control our
breathing, we control our emotions. I think that's
one way to approach scrying and have some control of fear. If we focus
on our breathing, we won't be focusing
on our fears.

A breathing pattern that I have found useful; is to breathe in for 10
seconds and out for 10 seconds. As you take a breath in,
you push down and out on your lower abs and stomach.. You breathe in and
out through the nose and the breath is as soft ,
quiet and smooth as possible. This is from an ancient Korean meditative
breathing technique, called Sun Do, for acquiring and
directing Ki energy and calming the mind.

I haven't done any candle gazing, but would like to try it. Any tips? I
used to practice staring at a candle flame and then
closing my eyes to see how long I could keep and bring back the after
image. That's the only candle work I've done.

Ken

	
#197?
 	From: greenmn900...
Date: Wed Jan 8, ?003 1:57 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	greenmn900...



Hi Sheila,

> You wrote:
> " I too had the startle response to my first
> few OBEs. Actually every once in while I still
> do - usually only when it happens too fast before
> I'm prepared to find myself so suddenly out there."

It's still my biggest problem when trying to accomplish a conscious OBE exit.
I'm working so hard to stay in the right state of mind, to remain completely
relaxed as I do so, etc., that once the vibrations fade I suddenly think to
myself, "I'm out!  I'm out!"  And then BOOM! - I fall back into my body!  The
falling sensation followed by the feeling of "landing" abruptly back in my
body startles me so much that another attempt is out of the question.  I have
to give it up and wait til the next night.  I used to occasionally wake up
already out, but that doesn't seem to happen much anymore.  So, I've been
working on trying to get out almost every night when I go to bed before I
fall asleep.  It rarely works though.  I think my last "for-sure" OBE was 6
months to a year ago.

I'm thinking about going back to the lucid dream approach but that's a tough
one to get control of too.  How do you do it?  I've got around 15 books on
astral projection and a few have some really good ideas (not just the normal
stuff like Monroe's and Muldoon's methods? ).  I think one of my problems is
that I want to do everything!  I want to concentrate on RVing, dowsing,
scrying, astral projecting, etc., and then also try out small variations on
all of the above.  So much to try and so little time! lol!

> You wrote:
> "I will start with simple meditation as
> you suggest and then move forward."

I was thinking that, since you have experience with candle-meditation, you
might want to try candle-scrying first.  It may be easier for you to start
with that.  But I don't know, I've never tried it with a candle.  It may be
harder than using a bigger, more reflective object to focus on.

It's funny, what you said about dreams being a better way to communicate with
the dead.  The book I talked about in the post I just made to Bill - under
Re: ouija (was thoughts; ?003? ), several people interviewed for that book said
exactly the same thing.  They all agreed that it's a more natural, safer way
to do it than any other.

Good luck.  Just don't get discouraged.  I almost did in the beginning.  The
first ?-3 times I tried scrying, I sat there for like 30 minutes and nothing
happened at all (that still happens probably ?0-30% of the time, instead of
getting aols - or something my imagination has created - I just don't get
anything? )  Then, suddenly, it started working.  I think the suddenness of it,
and the seeming ease of it, added to my startle-factor the first time it
worked for me.

Warm Regards,
Don

	
#1974
 	From: "Viv" 
Date: Wed Jan 8, ?003 9:?6 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	eclecticviv



Hi Kids:

I feel a need to interject a comment or two here on the
OBE subject.  I frequently hear or read, many folks
talking in terms of not being able to, or having a difficulty
with leaving one's physical state for an OBE excursion.
There many conditions/reasons, sited as to why it isn't
successful, at will.

IMO, this concept of doing an OBE is in error.  The fact
of the matter is, we ALL, OBE frequently, some, every
time they go to sleep.
The real issue here is remembering it.  That's what it is
reallly about.  If one is to tired, preoccupied, to intense
about doing an OBE, or whatever, this is what will
interfer with the conscious memory of OBE's.

Meditation as a preliminary for doing an OBE seems to
help a lot with the conscious retention of one's OBE
experience.  It might be even more helpful if the
meditation is set with the purpose of increasing the
memory of the experience, with greater detail and more
OBE  frequency. When I first set out to deliberately OBE,
I would meditate with the intention of traveling
someplace I've never been to before, that I could identify
later on a map.  Most of these first experiments were for
the purpose of having fun with the OBE.

I've also, read and heard, many describe their successful
separations for an OBE, but have never experienced that
for myself.  All I know is, I go to sleep, and suddenly I'm
aware that I'm out and about, in the nethers.
Conversely, most all of the OBE's I remember, usually
end abruptly.  The first couple of times it happened was a
little unnerving.  Feeling ones self, flying backwards,
while viewing the sky, stars, the inside of the attic, going
through the floor/ceiling,  as I fell fast,  a zillion miles an
hour, and then slamming into the physical, is an eye
opener.
Now I'm used to it and it's not a big deal to wake up from
the sudden slamming back.  I've found this is the result of
a physical sensor reaction.  Like, my cat changes position
and decides sleeping under my chin is better.  Things like,
a driver going by on the street with a noisy vehicle, stuff
like that.
Because of this, I realized, doing OBE's isn't a case of
doing them or not doing them, but remembering them.

I also, realized that sometimes small aspects of an OBE
may contain precognitive bits and pieces of info.
Several times I've met people for the first time in an OBE,
only to meet them again, for the first time, in waking life
later, like the next day, or the next week.

OBE's are fun and we all do OBexcursions all the time.
No one should feel concern that they're not accomplishing
this.  What we want most, is to remember the excursions.

Like to add, one of my most favorite OBE books is, "Out
of Body Experiences", by Robert Peterson.

Viv* 

----------------------------
Moderator's note: I agree, and also mentioned as I think Eva did, that OBEs
happen anyway during sleep, it's just remembering them.  But there is also
deliberately or fully conscious OBEs, which I've done much of my life, and they
are often very cool experiences and often feel much more physical than those
realized during sleep do.  'Astral projection' is another approach to psi work
and for some people who get practiced at it, it seems to work well.  Whether
this is just "another model" for how to interpret data, who knows!  PJ

	
#1977
 	From: "Chris Corden" 
Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 5:15 am
Subject: RE: Re: Psyche-building 	chriscordenuk



> Viv wrote:
> "I also, realized that sometimes small aspects of an OBE
> may contain precognitive bits and pieces of info.
> Several times I've met people for the first time in an OBE,
> only to meet them again, for the first time, in waking life
> later, like the next day, or the next week."

Many years ago I read a book by J W Dunn called 'Experiment in time'. In it
he proposed the theory that if we assume our 'present' to be a dot on a
timeline, when asleep our consciousness circles that dot. At times it passes
behind, at others it passes in front. He then suggested an experiment that
people could try for themselves. Grab the first thought in your head when
waking, write it down, and back track through as many of your dreams as you
can. Then, over the next few days, compare those dreams with what happens.

I tried this, and after a time was able to back track reasonably
successfully and appeared to be getting a number of 'hits'. However, one
morning I woke up remembering a very clear dream of standing on a corner at
the top of our road, hearing a car approaching fast, seeing it come around
the corner, skid, and crash into a hedge. That same morning I stood at the
top of the road and relived that dream. Nobody was hurt, the car wasn't even
badly damaged, but I stopped the experiment.

Why?

Because to this day I cannot be absolutely certain I didn't cause that car
to crash. There is no real logic to that thought, though predictions always
hold the risk of being self fulfilling prophesies, but the thought remains
nevertheless.

Am I being a fool? Am I being fanciful? Who knows. But the powers many of us
have can, and do, have a darker side, and I'm not always certain we
appreciate either their extent or potential.

Sorry folks, that all sounds a bit 'worthy' and I'm certain everyone in this
group exercises the greatest care. Anyway, that's the reason I tend to
involve myself more with past and present than the future.

Chris

	
#199?
 	From: "stanley014?0 " 
Date: Fri Jan 10, ?003 7:03 am
Subject: Re: Psyche-building 	stanley014?0



> Chris Corden wrote
> Because to this day I cannot be absolutely
> certain I didn't cause that car
> to crash. There is no real logic to that
> thought, though predictions always
> hold the risk of being self fulfilling
> prophesies, but the thought remains
> nevertheless.

I can't tell you how long I've wrestled with this too, Chris.  I can't
tell whether  I'm seeing something or whether  I'm causing it.

I don't want to do more harm than good and I don't understand
much of what is happening when it happens.

Sometimes an event will just hit me over the head so that I can
no longer ignore it and look the other way.  But  I don't tend to go
looking for them anymore.

I'd like to put this problem behind me and move on again but I ..
can't figure out a solution to this problem.

trypper

	
#1996
 	From: "stanley014?0 " 
Date: Fri Jan 10, ?003 8:?5 am
Subject: Re: Psyche-building 	stanley014?0



> Chris Corden wrote:
> There is no real logic to that thought,
> though predictions always
> hold the risk of being self fulfilling
> prophesies, but the thought remains nevertheless.

You know I've been thinking about this and it brought to mind a
time years and years ago when someone asked me to view my
own death.

  I remember how paranoid it made me..   wondering if the
person knew more about how this worked than I did and if they
were (in effect? ) getting me to schedule my death.  I really
resented the lack of .. I don't know.. caution I guess.

So little thought went into what they were doing back then
though.

Who knows ...

trypper

	#?003 	From: Bill Pendragon 
Date: Sat Jan 11, ?003 1?:54 am
Subject: Re: Re: Psyche-building 	docsavagebill



Hi Viv,

I think you are absolutely right. Just a small
example..but for awhile every time I did deep
meditation..I would startle to full conciousness with
a big jerk. I even consulted the doctor about a
possible nervous concidion.  But after reading about
lost memoryOBE's , I started focusing  on trying to
remember all the details of what happened prior to the
"jerk".. eventually I found I was lifting partially
out of body..like a balloon and then falling back in
and getting the jerk when  I hit.