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pjrv : Messages : 1980-1989 of 4038 
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From: greenmn900... Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 6:19 am Subject: Re: Different types of OBE greenmn900... Shelia, That's an amazing story! You produced PK effects. But it sounds like you weren't even in a light-trance when it happened - and that part is interesting too. Have you tried any other PK experiments? It sounds like you're a lot better at it than the average person is. It would be interesting to see how you demonstrate it under some strict controls. It's exciting to me because demonstrable PK has always seemed like the ultimate form of psi - the hardest to achieve and the phenomena that seems to violate more laws of physics than any other psi-related talent. What's really interesting to me is that, if your friends had just saw you there, we could always explain it away as simple telepathy - You intruded upon their awareness when your homesicknesses gave added power to your thoughts of them. But the fact that so many different people all saw the same poltergeist-like phenomena, and that you then repeated it with the door-knocking, means it was clearly a case of PK - with multiple witnesses. I tend to think of everything from RV and traveling clairvoyance to full-blown consciously-induced OBEs as being on a continuum. I don't think they are really diffferent, seperate phenomena, but just different manifestations of the same general talent, each one probably requiring different amounts and types of energy and concentration, and each one being closely related to the rest. But PK has always seemed like "The Holy Grail" of psi-talent. Best regards, Don


From: "intuitwolf " Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Different types of OBE intuitwolf > Don wrote > Have you tried any other PK experiments? It sounds like you're a > lot better at it than the average person is. When I was a child (before age 8? ) I remember moving the toys on the floor from my bed when I couldn't sleep at night. At 1? I really honest to god (to this day!? ) believe I actually levitated and flew a distance of 30+ feet. I was playing in my backyard and it was a very windy day. I was pretending to be a fairy and was imagining 'flying with the wind'. I would take running jumps into the air and see how far I could 'fly'. At one point I went so far I passed the garage which meant it was at least ?5 or 30 feet. I remember being so thrilled and scared at the same time and that I knew no one could fly so that I actually looked around to make sure no one had seen me do it -- like I was doing something not allowed. I did try several other times. Once (which may or may not qualify as PK? ) while alone lying in bed after reading the first Seth Materials, I felt a benevolent presence that I interpreted as Seth (now don't laugh - I was very impressed by that first book :-? ). Anyway, I said to the air, "well if you are really here just ring those wind chimes" (I had a windchime hanging in the room made of very thin pink tortoise shells? ) - well the darn thing let out a tinkle as loud as if someone had actually brushed them with their hand. I sat straight up in bed! (that startle factor again? ) and never again asked for any presence to prove anything in my physical reality. :-? ) I have bent a really sturdy spoon once -- and only once -- out of several attempts. Most recently I nearly cut two of my fingers to the bone in an unconscious PK event. I was angry at some folks who had been attempting to intimidate me and while I was washing dishes I was thinking about it. I had a large thick glass pot in my hands and while I was rinsing it out (without it touching anything except my hands? ) the damned thing literally exploded. It wasn't a matter of hot pan hitting cold water or cold pan hitting hot water either. The water I was using was lukewarm as I'd already used up most of the hot water, and the pan was at room temp. The glass fell into the sink, bounced up, and cut two of my fingers very deeply. I bled so much my husband wanted to take me to the hospital. But I managed to get calm enough to stop the bleeding and take care of it. (Stopping bleeding using glove anesthesia is a pk of sorts? ). So, I'd say that although I'm interested in PK I haven't really explored it significantly outside of healing work -- and rarely in that realm. > It would be interesting to see how you > demonstrate it under some strict controls. I'd probably exhibit a total failure rate :-? ). My past experiences have not been inducive to a desire for exhibition - whatever I've done has either been totally unconscious or has scared other people - or me! :-? ) I've never been good at the pk parties - for some reason those have always struck me as being done wrong -- like exactly backward. Yelling at a spoon? I'd rather be nice to molecules and ask them to respond. A spoon is part of the universe and it seems like a 'wrong use of will' to me to be 'demanding' in such a stringent manner that the universe bend to your will. See what I mean? That attitude if carried over into other life activities is more visible as a wrong attitude. > It's exciting to me because demonstrable PK has always seemed like > the ultimate form of psi - the hardest to achieve and the phenomena > that seems to violate more laws of physics than > any other psi-related talent. Once I have my life back (I've got three major projects going on right now - but after February I'll be a free again? ) it would be interesting to see if I could develop it in a way that could be gently demonstrable. Emotion does seem to be an activating factor in past events. How to do it minus the emotional factor may be the major challenge. > I tend to think of everything from RV and traveling clairvoyance to > full-blown consciously-induced OBEs as being on a continuum. I agree, but it helps to make delineations on that continuum in order to not talk past one another about our experiences. Shelia pjrv : Messages : 1976-?004 of 4038
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From: "intuitwolf " Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 1:44 am Subject: Different types of OBE intuitwolf > Viv wrote: > The real issue here is remembering it. That's what it is > reallly about. If one is to tired, preoccupied, to intense > about doing an OBE, or whatever, this is what will > interfer with the conscious memory of OBE's. > ---------------------------- > PJ wrote: > . . . But there is also deliberately or fully conscious OBEs, which > I've done much of my life, and they are often very cool experiences > and often feel much more physical than those realized during sleep > do. I agree with you about the primary idea that we all leave our bodies during sleep. And that intense focuse on making it happen is counter-productive. But I also note the extreme difference in awakening to an OBE or semi-conscious floating into one vs. the more physical consciously-induced OBE. When I first began to explore the world of psi it was due to some very unusal experiences. I was in St. Louis with the doctor and his family I spoke of before. I was homesick and wanted to go home. One Saturday night as I lay in bed unable to sleep I imagined myself at the creek where my friends and I always got together on Saturday night. It was all very real, I could hear their voices and laughter, I could see some of them. At that time I chalked it up to imagination. About an hour later I received a phone call from several of those friends who were all standing in a public phone booth calling St. Louis in the middle of the night. They told me they had seen me at the creek. Well, I thought they were all crazy - or had a tad too much wine. I had never heard of OBEs and didn't have a clue about psi. When I returned home the next month I received a call from the group asking me to come over to one of their homes. When I arrived they were all there acting very weird and the stories they told me were even more unbelievable. It was like a group intervention and they were their to confront me as a group. They said they had continued to 'see' me and that things were flying off the walls and shelves, doors were opening, etc. All the typical poletergists phenonmena. I wasn't having any of it. I told them they must have taken on some kind of group hysteria or someone in the group was having great fun leading them on. They all to a person insisted that they knew I was creating the phenonmena. I went home really peeved and perplexed by all of this. I talked to my mother about it and then it occured to me that I could prove it one way or the other by a little experiment. I told my mother (who was in effect to be my witness? ) that I would send myself in my mind to S's house and knock on the door. My mother was not too enthused about the experiment, but also didn't think anything would come of it, and if it would set my mind at ease she was willing to participate. I imagined the path to S's house -- about halfway there it seemed to become more clear, more real. When I reached the house everything had a clarity of detail that was not the norm for my imaginative images. Bricks had that crinkled look. The doorknob was brighter, etc. I knocked on the door. In less than two minutes our phone rang and S was on the other end of the line screaming at my mother to tell me to stop! That is the day I knew I had to figure out what was happening, and I've been working on it ever since. So, yes, I would say a consciously induced OBE is much more vital and absolutely you can influence physical reality while in one. Another note, I was not lying down when I did it. I was sitting in a chair. When the phone rang I remember feeling jolted somewhat but nothing as extreme as when I'm in one of those body asleep/mind awake OBEs. I don't think you can call it an astral projection because it's active on the physical plane. Shelia


From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...>" <031-7115905...> Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 ?:45 pm Subject: Re: Different types of OBE bokindstrand Have you read Karl Jansen's book Ketamine Dremasand Realities? In it he discusses the use of the drug Ketamine to OBEs by using tools as Ketamine in the waking world, to enter different levels of consciousness. You learn how to control them and can transfer that control over to the dream realm and get some OBEs while dreaming with ease. "Jansen has proposed a model based on similarities in ketamine experiences and NDEs. His model theorizes a neuroprotective benefit from the experiences in that the end neurotransmitter L-glutamate may be both neuroprotective and an endopsychosin. This model gives an evolutionary reason for the development of the experiences as they may protect the brain against hypoxia as well as giving an expanded sense of awareness and detachment helpful in life threatening situations..(Jansen K 1996? ) Ketamine also acts in the mesiotemporal lobes and associated limbic lobe structures.(Morse 1989? )" ----------------------- Moderator's note: Vitamin K! LOL. Dr. John Lilly's autobiography (he's the guy who worked with actual early mind control, and dolphin language? ) is a really good read. He got addicted to K and it really messed up his life. He goes on about the 'stainless steel intelligences' and so on -- I always thought Lilly and Robert Monroe could have had a very good, if weird, rap session! PJ


From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...>" <031-7115905...> Date: Fri Jan 10, ?003 5:08 am Subject: Re: Different types of OBE bokindstrand Here is another technique you can work with to initate a OBE. I know from my own experience that it works well: Dr Cheyne tries the 'Roll Out' Technique Dr Al Cheyne, a respected scientist who has done a lot of research into ASP, had not had an ASP episode for about ?0 years. Then, during the early morning houurs of May 10, ?00?, after tossing and turning for a couple hours, he found that he was unable to turn his head and he realized that his body was paralyzed. I then remembered my determination to experiment with the OBE should I ever have another SP experience. Here was an opportunity try to get out of my body. I tried to do this by simply rolling over as nonchalantly as the circumstances permitted and had immediate success - well almost. I could feel myself separating from the upper half of my body by turning to the right, but felt stuck in my lower torso and legs. I then decided spontaneously to try to spin out of my body and I immediately began to spin around the longitudinal axis of my body and slid out, floating down the bed, and ending up hovering across the foot of the bed - actually just past the foot of the bed - hovering, in a horizontal position, a couple of feet above the bedroom floor. Now that I was "out," I decided to experiment further. I first tried to levitate my "astral" body - which seemed to be complete. I was unable, however, to rise above about three feet from the floor. I then decided to let myself fall - or rather, sink - into the floor. In this I was successful and I passed through the floor effortlessly, noting the floor joists as I passed, through the next level and the next floor. I then realized that I would next sink into the ground and decided that would be unpleasant and so stopped myself from sinking and found myself once again at the foot of my bed. I next decided to try floating horizontally toward the window. This worked immediately and I awaited, with some anticipation, my passage through the window. I passed through the window quite effortlessly, though I did feel myself brushing aside a few of the slats of the Venetian blinds that really do hang in my bedroom window. Then things began to get truly interesting! Cheyne began to explore the neighborhood outside his bedroom window. The scene changed and he found himself on an ocean liner. By the time the experience ends it had become a lucid dream, but he doesn't explain how that transition took place. For the benefit of others who might want to try this technique, Dr Cheyne now tried to describe how he had done it It is difficult to describe because one has no idea how it is done ... This is also how lucid dreamers do things in their dreams: They simply decide to do them. ... Automatic processes take over ... or sometimes ... not. If they do not there is nothing else to do except to plan on doing something else and hope that the automatic processes for that are ready to hand. The point is that there is no way that one can voluntarily affect the automatic processes except by planning and deciding. Recall that my fist attempt to roll out of my body was not completely successful. I got stuck halfway out. Had I continued to struggle to get out of my lower body I think I would have been unsuccessful and would have quickly found myself entirely paralyzed within seconds. Rather than trying harder to have the experience of getting out of my body I tried something different. I decided to spin. I do not know how I managed to spin any more than I really know how to sit up or roll over. I just decided to do it and some automatic processes just took over. There was no guarantee that they would do so. I might have got stuck again, though I did not. If I had, I suppose I would have tried to sink out of my body or float out. I am confident something would have worked eventually, as long as I did not start to struggle to force something happen that just was not ready to happen. Trying to act in as natural and unforced a manner as possible is part of the solution but I do not think that it can be the whole answer. The type of movement seems important. Turning, spinning, rotating seem to work better than simple linear movements like sitting up. This was a greatly condensed version Dr Cheyne's report in the SPAWN Newsletter.


From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...>" <031-7115905...> Date: Fri Jan 10, ?003 1?:0? pm Subject: Re: Different types of OBE bokindstrand > Shelia wrote: > But I also note the extreme difference in > awakening to an OBE or semi-conscious > floating into one vs. the more > physical consciously-induced OBE. Here is a scientific explanation on what is really happening when you are having an OBE and dream lucid: "A mysterious and highly controversial phenomenon sometimes occurs in which people experience the compelling sensation that they have somehow "left their bodies." The "out-of-body experience" or "OBE", as this fascinating phenomenon is usually termed, takes a variety of forms. In the most typical, you are lying in bed, apparently awake, when suddenly you experience a range of primarily somatic sensations, often including vibrations, heaviness, and paralysis. Then you experience the vivid sensation of separating from your "physical body" in what feels like a second body, often floating above the bed. It is important to note the distinction between the phenomenal reality of the OBE and the various interpretations of the experience. What is really happening when you feel yourself "leaving your body"? According to one school of thought, what is actually happening is just what it feels like: you are moving in a second body out of and away from your physical body--in physical space. But this "explanation" doesn't hold up very well under examination. After all, the body we ordinarily feel ourselves to be (or if you like, to inhabit? ) is a phenomenal or mental body rather than a physical body. The space we see around us is not physical space as "common sense" tells us, but as modern psychology makes clear, a phenomenal or mental space. In general, our consciousness is a mental model of the world. OBE enthusiasts promote lucid dreaming as a "stepping stone" to the OBE. Conversely, many lucid dreamers have had the experience of feeling themselves "leave the body" at the onset of a lucid dream. From a laboratory study, we have concluded that OBEs can occur in the same physiological state as lucid dreams. Wake-initiated lucid dreams (WILDs? ) were three times more likely to be labeled "OBEs" than dream initiated lucid dreams. If you believe yourself to have been awake, then you are more likely to take the experience at face value and believe yourself to have literally left your physical body in some sort of mental or "astral" body floating around in the "real" physical world. If, on the other hand, you think of the experience as a dream, then you are likely to identify the OBE body as a dream body image and the environment of the experience as a dream world. The validity of the latter interpretation is supported by observations and research on these phenomena." --------------------------- Moderator's note: Sounds like a scientific theory, much more than a 'known' about 'what is really happening'. As most of us probably suspect, such things are on a spectrum scale and it's often difficult to clearly categorize things. I liked the note about "our consciousness is a mental model of the world." I might say 'contains and perceives through one' instead, but I think that point is important. If all time is one, then all space is one, and technically we have no more need to 'go' anywhere than we do to 'travel' in time. Then again, we technically might not 'need' to fall in love, either. Life in this realm seems geared for experience, and OBEs sure are experiential! -- PJ #?004 From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sat Jan 11, ?003 6:?8 am Subject: Re: Different types of OBE ozblueriver > From: Bo Kindstrand > Trying to act in as natural and unforced a > manner as possible is part of the solution > but I do not think that it can be the whole > answer. The type of movement seems important. > Turning, spinning, rotating seem to work better > than simple linear movements like sitting up. The easiest way I've found to 'get out' of body is to mentally do a back flip. I do this trick when I'm having trouble conjuring up my normal nightly flying. This would fit right in with the "Turning, spinning, rotating" that is spoken of above. I lay in bed and get into a sleepy state then mentally do a back flip. I've noticed that I have to do it with real feeling as if I really am flipping right over in a circle. One I've come back full circle to my 'original position' I'm usually in space amongst the stars for some unknown reason. There seems to be a question of whether or not we really do leave our bodies when having an OBE. Some of us are convinced that we leave our bodies and others feel that it is all a mental exercise. I think we are in both states at the same time and weather we feel we are still in our bodies or floating around outside just depends on where the main focus of our consciousness is. Even if we think OBE's are really taking place in our heads, in reality we really do leave our bodies and are conscious of what that body is doing, yet conscious of our physical body at the same time. The trouble is that, (usually? ), we seem to remember only what one body is doing at a time. I say 'usually', but I know we can be aware of both bodies at the same because while I'm off flying every night before I go to sleep I am still totally aware of my physical body laying in bed. I've even driven a car while being aware of another body of mine doing something else and feeling as if I'm fully functional in both. And I've had proof that the 'other' body really was out there in the physical as well as my physical body. So just to sum up my rambling, I think OBE's are mental, physical and astral (and an infinite number of other ways? ), all at the same time and it just depends on where our consciousness is focused as to what we remember. I think one day when our consciousness expands a little more, we will be able to experience that we are not only in and out of body at the same time but also be conscious of being everywhere and everything all at one time. It's mind boggling and Oh so cool don't you think! Cheers Liz

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