pjrv : Messages : 1929-1946 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/1929?)
23:31:53
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------
#1929
From: "David "
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 10:07 am
Subject: Ouija and RV jam1433
Glyn wrote: "I have often thought that it would be interesting to
maybe use the Tarot in conjunction with an RV session."
I was thinking that it might also be interesting to attempt to use
the Ouija in conjuction with an RV session. Perhaps trying a regular
RV session first, and then using the Ouija to gleen additional data.
Like asking the ouija to "Describe target XXXXX"
David M.
Reply | Forward
#1933
From: "intuitwolf "
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija and RV intuitwolf
> David wrote
> I was thinking that it might also be interesting to attempt to use
> the Ouija in conjuction with an RV session. Perhaps trying a regular
> RV session first, and then using the Ouija to gleen additional data.
> Like asking the ouija to "Describe target XXXXX"
If it's treated like a session and you aren't invoking any
disincarnate entities in the process you might get some info...I'd
surely have a scribe assisting cause it would just be too cumbersome
to write while trying to gather info. Think of how fast one sometimes
writes in a session -- the data comes so fast a lot of it gets lost.
Let us know if you get a sprained wrist sliding about that board. :-)
I am kidding; I think it would be a fun experiment. I've played with
the Ouija when I was a kid -- but we never thought of it as connected
to 'spirits' or entities. We (my cousin and I) thought of it as just
being psychic. We never had any frightening experiences with it.
But then, at 18 I moved to St. Louis and lived with a doctor and his
family -- the wife was very interested in the Ouija and she had that
'spiritualist' slant to it. Which resulted in some very terrifying
experiences for me.
So, I think it really does depend (just as when working with any other
medium) upon your perspective - how you approach it -- for what
purpose -- and with what intent.
I don't feel that any 'disincarnate entity' still hanging out in a
near-earth orbit is wise enough to advise me on anything...so I would
never intend contact with such in this context. :-) Same thing goes
for 'aspects of self' that aren't evolved enough to come through in a
more appropriate and identified context...in other words if its trace
and influence is so weak that I have to project it as being outside of
myself in order to make contact with it then it is probably some part
of self best left alone to either develop or dissipate.
Shelia
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#1936
From: "Glyn"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 3:11 pm
Subject: RE: Ouija and RV gebega
It certainly would David, we wouldn't have to deal with the sort of AOL that
we deal with in an RV session....but we may still get some 'verbal' I
guess. LOL! :-)). It would be a fascinating experience . Unfortunately I now
don't have anyone to do the Ouija with...well no one I could trust to keep
two feet on the ground about it anyway, and I can't do it on my own. If you
or someone else on the list manages it I would love to hear about the
outcome.
I will try the Tarot with a future target and post if there seems to be any
correlation.
Kind Regards,
Glyn
> I was thinking that it might also be interesting to attempt to use
> the Ouija in conjuction with an RV session. Perhaps trying a regular
> RV session first, and then using the Ouija to gleen additional data.
> Like asking the ouija to "Describe target XXXXX"
Reply | Forward
#1946
From: greenmn900...
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 11:11 am
Subject: Re: Ouija and RV greenmn900...
Hi,
> David Wrote:
> "I was thinking that it might also be
> interesting to attempt to use
> the Ouija in conjuction with an RV session"
I agree. I've sometimes wished I was practiced with Tarot Cards, the
I-Ching, Dowsing, Scrying, and even reading things like tea or coffee
grounds, and other forms of divination. That would be a hell of an arsenal
of methods for one person to be able to bring to bear on any applications
problem. Then you would have different tools for different aspects of the
problem; Tarot cards for getting interpersonal data and relationship stuff,
RV for the more physical data, the ouija board for specific numbers and
letters, etc.
Best Regards,
Don
pjrv : Messages : 1911-2006 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/1911?)
23:35:24
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------
#1911
From: "Sharon Webb"
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 3:41 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) sharwebb_30512
Glyn,
At the risk of turning off the rest of the list, I'll give you a couple of Ouija
hits:
I was asking for a friend about her daughter, Gretchen, who was planning to go
to Italy on a junior year summer abroad study program. The board said that not
only would Gretchen go, but so would her cousin and the cousin's boyfriend. Her
mom said, "That's impossible. Diane doesn't have any money, and neither does
her boyfriend." The message went on to describe the room where Gretchen would
stay---in a high-ceilinged room with no closet in a yellow building off a square
filled with pigeons. There would be a cathedral at one end of the square.
A few weeks later, my friend called and told me that Diane and boyfriend had
suddenly come into a windfall and would be going. They did, and Gretchen's room
was as described.
Another example: I was told that my husband (who was a real estate salesman at
the time) would have a new client show up soon. This man would have a white
beard and drive a van. He would buy a large tract of land.
The next day, my husband called home just after lunch. In a hushed voice, he
said, "Your man just came." The guy had a white beard, drove a van, and bought
a couple of hundred acres. He came from out of town and had never been in the
office before.
Sharon
sharwebb...net
www.fractalus.com/sharon
------------------------------
Moderator's note: Turn 'em off if necessary. Psi is psi; exposure to all
aspects of it is useful IMO, and anybody who gets far enough into RV eventually
has their mind greatly expanded in this regard anyway. I think it is good for
the list to have people with a variety of backgrounds on it. There are people
on this list who've done more in the way of Tarot, scrying, dreamwork, OBEs,
TM/meditation focus etc. than RV, and it's my feeling that such people often do
better with RV as a result of that exposure and experience.
Though I focus on RV (and to a lesser degree dowsing), the list's subtitle is
'Practical Psi...'. -- I want the list to have a focus on "practical psi and
experiential development" -- that isn't limited to RV, that's just the normal
focus. Your work with Ouija, with channeling, and with Silva, is plenty
interesting to me, and to many others I am sure. FWIW... just fyi. - Palyne
Reply | Forward
#1915
From: "Glyn"
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 5:43 pm
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) gebega
Thanks for that Sharon, it's very interesting.........as PJ said, '"psi is
psi", and a hit is a hit no matter how it manifests itself :-)). We never
got such astounding results unfortunately.
I wish that we had concentrated more on asking sensible things that may,
perhaps, have been validated like yours..instead of some of the silly stuff
we did do. The questions I would ask now would be quite different. Ah well.
PJ mentioned the Tarot, and I used to do that a lot too, and sometimes I
still do, but I told my friends that I have stopped doing it now.. because I
used to be inundated by love-life questions almost non stop. Agghh! I once
told my sister I'd lost my cards, but she discovered them in my cupboard.
LOL!!
I use the 'Thoth' deck (Crowley's), its the only one I like. I usually ask
myself a question (and do the same simple past/present/future spread every
time..lack of imagination I guess :-)), and I let things just come into my
mind when I look at each card. Sometimes I let the traditional meanings
influence me consciously, and maybe look them up, but sometimes not. I can
never remember all the meanings and nuances..but my sub can of course
because I've read just about every Tarot book going :-). I don't care which
way up they fall and don't hand the cards to the querant, if there is one,
to shuffle or deal out. Sometimes I would ask the person just to think of
their question and I would do a 'blind' reading. Now of course, I understand
that I am using the designs on the cards to get info via my sub, but it has
always amazed me how those who do concentrate on only using the traditional
meanings.. can often have such great success.....now how does that happen?
Surely it can't be the cards organising themselves at the shuffle stage?!
What's going on there? Fascinating stuff.
I have had some good results with the Tarot, but only broadly, never
detailed...but there is someone (who I think may be on this list) who could
really talk about the Tarot..if they wanted to. No names no pack-drill; I'll
leave it up to them ;-)).
I have often thought that it would be interesting to maybe use the Tarot in
conjunction with an RV session.
Regards,
Glyn
Reply | Forward
#1917
From: greenmn900...
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 1:26 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Sharon,
Those sound like awesome hits. :-)
One of the nice things about the ouija board is that it's good for getting
names, letters, and numbers - the very things RV is generally NOT good at.
Just as RV is generally NOT good at "finding" things but dowsing IS. I think
this makes it pretty apparent how valuable learning many different psi
methods can be. It gives you many different tools for attacking any problem.
Best Regards,
Don
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#1921
From: "Glyn"
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 7:20 pm
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) gebega
Hi Don,
Yes, it's becoming more and more apparent that combining these 'tools' (and
finally laying to waste the 'supernatural' flim-flam that surrounds their
use; which puts so many people off), may have the potential to produce some
pretty amazing results.
Regards,
Glyn
Reply | Forward
#1928
From: "Nita Hickok"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 3:38 am
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) nitahickok
Hello Glyn
I like using a set of rune stones. You make your own set by
picking up stones you like and then painting the runes on them. You
put them in a bag and when you have questions you shake them up and
draw out the stones in the number you want. There are a number of
books upon this. I have a tendancy to make the tarot cards come up
the way I want them to but I don't seem to do that with the runes.
Another scrying tool is a magic mirror. You take a mirror and coat
it with camomile tea. Let it dry and energize the outside of the
mirror in the way you want to do it. You can use prayer to ask to see
what you want to observe. You then view it in the mirror.
It takes clearing your mind but then the pictures show up in the
mirror. All of these are old methods. Pyromancy is also interesting.
You take a non-flammable bowl and put water in it. You then add a
thin layer of wood alcohol or rubbing alcohol upon the top of it. You
set it on fire and it shows the images of what you want to see. You
pray or think what you want to see into the water before you set it
on fire. These are all old methods and probably safer than the ouija
board.
Nita
Reply | Forward
#1934
From: "intuitwolf "
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) intuitwolf
> You take a mirror and coat
> it with camomile tea.
Does the tea give it a yellow cast to the color or somewhat distort
the mirror? I'm going to have to try that one. Do you brew a really
strong tea to do this?
> Pyromancy is also interesting.
> You take a non-flammable bowl and put water in it. You then add a
> thin layer of wood alcohol or rubbing alcohol upon the top of it.
a very thin layer! Children or people who tend toward pk experiences
should not try this one :-)
Thanks Nita,
Shelia
Reply | Forward
#1937
From: "Nita Hickok"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) nitahickok
Hello Sheila
Camomile tea is a universal condenser which concentrates the
energy that is projected at it and produces a more visible result for
the person trying to scry. It is the reason for the prayer or request
before doing the scrying. It collects the energy and makes it easier
for things to form and be seen. It should be a really strong tea.
A interesting note to everyone. A simple witchcraft spell so
psychic people can not see you involves two mirrors. You coat the
shiny side with marigold tea with a prayer that anyone looking will
only see themselves. You glue the mirrors together and hang them
above the bed or wherever you want to protect.
Nita
Reply | Forward
#1920
From: greenmn900...
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 1:47 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Glyn,
> You Wrote:
> "I have often thought that it would be
> interesting to maybe use the Tarot in
> conjunction with an RV session"
My wife has been involved in Tarot cards for many years (btw, she uses the
Crowley deck, too). Several years ago we did an experiment with the cards in
a way that at least approaches RV protocol. I took the names of 10 of her
friends and sealed each one in an envelope. Then I mixed them up and several
days later, she began the experiment. She would pull an envelope at random
and then do a card spread. At the end of her session, she would write down
which one of her friends she thought it was based on the information she had
gotten from the cards. When she had done all 10 envelopes, we opened them
and she got her feedback. She was right 8 out of 10 times!
I hadn't put much stock in the Tarot cards prior to this little experiment.
It wasn't that I didn't think they worked, I just thought that the psychic is
restricted by the cards that turn up and that somehow that MUST be a huge
damper on accuracy. But after this experiment and then watching my wife use
the cards over time, I changed my mind. I now think they work for most
people as you described - they sort of give the reader something to occupy
the conscious mind long enough for the subconscious to pass information into
the reader's awareness. Because I've learned that most long-time card
readers are like you and my wife, they use their own interpretation (which
may change for the same card even in the same position when it's for
different clients).
Best Regards,
Don.
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#1923
From: "Glyn"
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 8:46 pm
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) gebega
Hi Don,
>
> When she had done all 10 envelopes, we opened them
> and she got her feedback. She was right 8 out of 10 times!
Now that is impressive Don. I hope she does RV too.
> I wouldn't mind having a try at that myself ,
> beats the heck out of love-life readings :-).
>
> I now think they work for most
> people as you described - they sort of give the
> reader something to occupy the conscious mind
> long enough for the subconscious to pass information
> into the reader's awareness.
Well I was actually thinking along the lines of the designs on the cards
helping with imagery....but what you say makes far more sense! I have been
trained in only one structured method of doing RV (HRVG), so I can only
speak for that, but I know that some of the thinking behind doing the
various Stages in such a precise way is to keep the conscious mind occupied
so psi can get through. It's the same thing isn't it? Yes, I think you're
right.
Regards,
Glyn
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#1922
From: Richard Krankoski
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 10:46 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) Rich_crv
>
> At the risk of turning off the rest of the list,
> I'll give you a couple of Ouija hits:
I agree with PJ. Are you still doing ouija? If so, how about asking
for your soul name? The reason I did way back in my one experience was that at
that time I was heavy into Edgar Cayce who spoke of soul names and I was curious
as to what would happen.
Rich
Reply | Forward
#1925
From: Richard Krankoski
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 11:10 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) Rich_crv
Well, ok, Never mind my treasure hunt, lets go to work on the lotto.
:)
Rich
> Glyn wrote:
> Yes, it's becoming more and more apparent that combining these 'tools' (and
> finally laying to waste the 'supernatural' flim-flam that surrounds their
> use; which puts so many people off), may have the potential to produce some
> pretty amazing results.
Reply | Forward
#1927
From: Richard Krankoski
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 11:18 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) Rich_crv
Hi Don,
That's the kind of results that never seem to make it into controlled
experiments. Every article I have read on Tarot experiments pretty much said
something like: For any given reading most of the participants felt it applied
to them. Or--- multiple readers gave varying data on one subject.
Can anyone refer me to a book or article on successful Tarot experiments?
Rich
--------------------
Moderator's note: It occurs to me that Tarot, like i-ching, might be better for
'conceptual', 'contextual', 'relationship' and 'situationally predictive' data
than the kind of physical info RV is usually trying to describe. Not sure but
it seems like those are more the strong points of those arts. -- PJ
Reply | Forward
#1931
From: "intuitwolf "
Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 11:56 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) intuitwolf
> Moderator's note: It occurs to me that
> Tarot, like i-ching, might be
> better for 'conceptual', 'contextual',
> 'relationship' and
> 'situationally predictive' data than the
> kind of physical info RV is
> usually trying to describe. Not sure
> but it seems like those are
> more the strong points of those arts. -- PJ
Essentially you are right that these tend to work best in regard to
relational data; but then, if you are looking for something (for
instance a box of papers in the cellar buried under four layers of
other boxes) then it can give you relational data that will help. I've
used the IChing on several occasions to find things and it actually
works better for me than dowsing. You just have to have a really open
response set to the imagery in the reading. I've also used it to work
the lottery (and have won some of the smaller Pick 3s and partials of
the 5 and 6 number lotteries) - but that's a pretty complicated system
involving the Yellow River Map and spreadsheets. :-)
Shelia
Reply | Forward
#1940
From: greenmn900...
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 10:26 am
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Glyn,
>You Wrote:
>"Now that is impressive Don. I hope she does RV too."
Yeah, she really blows me away sometimes. Her readings with I-Ching seem to
be even more accurate than her Tarot card readings - except when she does
them on me. She rarely can do an accurate reading for me, probably because
she's too close to the situarion she's inquiring about.
My wife, Sheila, has done around 20 RV sessions (I just went to ask her
because I couldn't remember). And some of them were excellent. One in
particular is probably the single best session I've ever seen, a drawing that
was almost an exact duplicate of the picture in the envelope. That
particular one was somewhere around her 4th or 5th target. She does a form
of ERV, like I do. She basically relaxes, clears her mind and meditates,
waiting for the information to appear. I'd like to see her do a lot more RV,
but she's just not interested. I think using the cards and the I-Ching have
made it too easy for her to be very interested in RV, RV reqires a lot more
work. So, I do the remote viewing and she does her stuff - we live in a very
psychic household. lol.
Best regards,
Don
Reply | Forward
#1944
From: greenmn900...
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 10:52 am
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Rich and PJ,
Rich, can you point me to some experiments with Tarot Cards? I didn't know
anyone had even researched them and I've always wondered, why not? Ours was
pretty uncontrolled, and remember, we set it up so that she had to decide
which of her friends from a list of ten matched which reading. So, she
basically did the judging her self.
I think there's lots of ways to set up better experiments. Like you siad,
PJ, the kind of information one generally gets from Tarot-style readings
doesn't lend itself to describing specific physical objects or locations.
But they don't seem bad when it comes to events where humans are involved.
One way to set up a good experiment might be like they did with mediums not
long ago (where John Edward was one of the mediums) at some university, I
can't recall who it was that did the study (was it the guy from the "Mobius"
something-or-other?). If I recall correctly, the "target people" (who the
readings were done for) gave a list of names of dead relatives and friends
prior to the experiment. Then, after the readings, they looked to see how
many of the mediums had named or described how many of the names from the
people's lists. I think this style of experiment would work well for Tarot
cards, the i-Ching, etc. Just have the "target people" give a list of brief
descriptions of what's going on in their lives currently and then see how
many of the Tarot card readings match up. The matching could even be done by
a blind judge who otherwise doesn't take part in any aspect of the
experiment. It could even be done doubleblind. I'd really like to see more
research in these areas as I think all the forms of divination are every bit
as valid as RV is.
Warm Regards,
Don
Reply | Forward
#1945
From: greenmn900...
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 11:14 am
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Nita,
> You Wrote:
> "These are all old methods and probably
> safer than the ouija board."
I think you're probably right, but could you explain why you think they are
safer, please? Safer in what way? I'm not trying to be challenging or
anything, I'd just like to hear your thoughts in this area. Thanks.
Best Regards,
Don
Reply | Forward
#1948
From: "Nita Hickok"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 6:44 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) nitahickok
Hello Don
Ouija boards mainly link into the dead and people with mediumistic
capabilities. Scrying links into clairvoyant talents and far seeing
just like RV. There are no outside forces called upon unless you do a
prayer and then you pick who you pray too. A common prayer would use
God, angels or saints.
Nita
Reply | Forward
#1954
From: "Glyn"
Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 5:10 am
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) gebega
Hi Nita and all,
I don't know about linking to the dead, as this opens up a whole area rife
with belief/non-belief..an interesting area, and one worthy of
discussion......but for the present anyway, my main interest lies with areas
of psi that can be easily verified, and what you say about linking to
people with mediumistic capabilities when 'doing' Ouija rings a distinct
bell (please excuse the pun LOL!).
When my sister, mother, and I used to 'do' the Ouija years ago, we actually
very rarely got 'messages' from those who considered themselves dead, or
from beings who had never lived (as we know it) in the first
place..............but we used to get lots from those who claimed to be
people fast asleep, and they came from all over the world...and across time
(which is quite significant). Some of the 'contemporary' ones even gave us
phone numbers (but those we tried never worked, but we never looked further
than modern phone directories), and addresses (which shamefully we never
really followed up.....because we were not 'into' that sort of thing at the
time). These 'conversations' would sometimes start off fairly sensibly, and
then they would deteriorate badly. Sometimes it seemed as if we were talking
to idiots, and sometimes children or childlike adults.
Now, there are some theories that 'psi' happens because we are all connected
on a deeper level. If that were indeed so, then the Ouija would be more
easily explained. If during Ouija we 'tune' into those who are sleeping (in
other altered states), it would be very rare to find someone who could
communicate logically. Someone with mediumistic (psi) abilities would stand
a better chance of having a logical 'conversation' while in that state (but
like lucidity in dreams it would probably be extremely difficult to 'hold'
onto for long...hence some of the garbage after a while). Most of the
'stuff' would be like trying to get sense out of people who are
dreaming........yes, just like that!
There could seem to be entities, discarnates, aliens, even the dead, because
some sensible and even validatable stuff would come through, perhaps even
sparking off visuals in participants more sensitive (maybe both 'sides' of
the 'conversation'). Clairvoyant ability would be working on both 'ends of
the Ouija phone', and linear time would not be a problem (as seems to be the
case when using psi in RV), in fact it could be causing problems. Waking
visuals and hallucinations could be 'sparked off' in the more sensitive
(e.g. seeing ghosts/ hearing things).
OK, this is total speculation on my part, but it is an area to explore,
definitely, as it may contain pointers to how psi works. However we need to
drop some of the old-fashioned thinking about Ouija.
As for the PK activity (poltergeist activity) reported by some, well that
deserves exploring too.
Excuse the ramble and if a bit disconnected...........I got on a 'roll'
there. LOL!
Regards,
Glyn
Reply | Forward
#1956
From: "Glyn"
Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 6:11 am
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) gebega
Hi Nita and all,
I'm back again :-).
I've been thinking about how we may be able to 'speak' to the dead, while
using the Ouija.
If my ideas (and those of many others no doubt) about people communicating
on a subconscious level, (via psi), while using the Board are anywhere near
the mark, and there are no linear time problems outside our normal conscious
perception... then it would be quite possible to 'speak' to someone who
although dead in our present time, would not be dead in the past where you
'speak' to them..
Being able to cross time 'barriers' and access information in the past
could help to explain many things. We do it in RV, so we know it's possible,
it's just that there may be a way of getting more 'inter-activity' via
something like the Ouija, where we can use language more easily.
What I am getting at here is that sometimes we may be mistaken. I am
willing to believe that perhaps I could 'talk' to my mother by accessing her
mind back in time, but if I can only communicate with her subconscious then
I could get all sorts of garbage and make all sorts of deductions from that.
Just think of some of the dreams we have...and the trouble we get during RV,
and the stuff we can get from people who are hypnotised. My Mum's sub could
convey that she was dead and sitting on a cloud...and I might believe it. I
am not explaining myself very well, but I hope you get my drift.
However....... could I talk to her in any situation she may be in *now*
(hopefully not just sitting on a cloud :-) ? Obviously that depends on
whether there really is an Afterlife....and that's where we start to get all
the belief stuff coming into it and maybe messing up truth and fiction. If
there is evidence of life after death mixed up in all the records of human
experience then it may be hard to find because of that. Trying to confirm
it will need some pretty level-headed experimentation, and absolutely no
prior assumptions or belief system 'baggage'.......and that is the difficult
bit.....
End of ramble, your mail inspired so many thoughts Nita, thanks. :-).
Cheers for now,
Glyn
-------------------------
Moderator's note: It's just evidence that it's all a matter of belief systems, I
guess. I am perfectly OK with the idea of talking to the dead (though it does
generally seem a bit pointless, unless they know where that gold is buried!
LOL!), but an earlier post that mentioned the "universal condenser" of Camomile
Tea and its energies made me smile. I think I have my own little box of
"acceptable data," and no matter how possible or even logical something might
be, if it isn't familiar in MY little box, it cracks me up! You guys just keep
expanding my brain. It's good for me. :-) -- PJ
Reply | Forward
#1969
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 4:28 pm
Subject: RE: Time traveling ghosts docsavagebill
Hi Glyn,
I think a lot of RV scientists share your view that
talking to the dead involves talking thru time to a
then existant brain. I think the model of ARV inspired
that viewpoint. However I don't agree.. I think if
conciousness exists independent of the brain,..there
is no reason to confine it at all to a brain in the
past. It seems more reasonable to assume that
it's everywhere and everytime ( the Matrix model). For
instance Rob Abbott has several "spook" friends that
pop in and talk and joke and have even have heated
arguments with him. If they are having heated
arguments about contemporary issues..it seems
unnecessary to make a model that maintains ghosts are
actually a now dead brain talking thru time ( and
gleaning current knowledge thru time), when they were
alive. In fact I'm not sure that those two cases
could be experimentally separated. Occams razor
etc....G.
Best Regards
Bill
Reply | Forward
#1971
From: "Glyn"
Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 1:43 pm
Subject: Theories of Life the Universe and Everything :-) gebega
Hi Bill,
(This is a long one best kept for when you have the time. Sorry, but
sometimes I don't know where to stop, so I've changed the subject to keep it
separate :-))
> From: Bill Pendragon
> I think a lot of RV scientists share your view that
> talking to the dead involves talking thru time to a
> then existant brain.
Well it's not really a set view of mine Bill, as I have quite a few others
which are fighting amongst each other for supremacy; and I'm always adding
more anyway :-).
> I think the model of ARV inspired
> that viewpoint. However I don't agree.. I think if
> conciousness exists independent of the brain,..there
> is no reason to confine it at all to a brain in the
> past.
If you mean by that consciousness may be 'held' (for lack of a better
word), outside the brain, do you still think that consciousness is brain
dependant in the first place(i.e. an individual consciousness is 'birthed'
by an individual developing brain, even though 'held' separately), and if
so, do you think that particular 'new' consciousness eventually becomes
joins up with and becomes part of a collective consciousness...('Matrix')?
Or....do you think along the lines of there being one consciousness in the
first place...maybe a non-physical life-form...which uses physical bodies to
express individuality (or for whatever reason...maybe has to).
For an example (analogy) of what I mean (I expect you have seen something
like this before, but for the benefit of others who haven't...and for me who
needs to get it straight in my mind)....
.... We may be like many computers (bodies with brains) which all run
slightly different software (different brain-chemistry/personalities/mental
abilities), and they are all connected (two way) to the same enormous
database somewhere(the Matrix/group mind/Cosmic
Consciousness/whatever),which contains the sum of all experience; although
the individual machine/brain does not have the processing power to 'know'
the full extent of the database. Throughout its existence each individual
uses it's own brain for slightly different purposes, and it's experiences
will be uploaded (by 'backdoor' software..maybe our subconscious) to augment
the source database. When one computer goes down (an individual dies)there
are always others being built (born), to carry on expanding the database.
Bit long-winded and very simplistic that, but more or less explains one of
my more favourite ideas :-). I think that what may be happening with 'psi'
is that we (little individual machines), are sort of 'hacking' into parts of
the main 'database'. LOL!
Is however this 'sum of all experience'...conscious in its own right, and
does it retain elements of the personality of the individual; for even a
short time? That's another question(s) worth the pondering, but it's for
sure that there's a lot more going on than mundane existence would lead us
to believe.
> It seems more reasonable to assume that
> it's everywhere and everytime ( the Matrix model). For
> instance Rob Abbott has several "spook" friends that
> pop in and talk and joke and have even have heated
> arguments with him.
Interesting, I'd love to know more about that. Is this via something like
the Ouija or does he actually see them? Have they confirmed that they were
once alive? Can that be validated if recent? Are they waiting to be
re-incarnated? What is time like for them compared to our perception of
duration? What do they do when not visiting people? If you're on this list
please tell us more about that Rob.
> If they are having heated
> arguments about contemporary issues..it seems
> unnecessary to make a model that maintains ghosts are
> actually a now dead brain talking thru time ( and
> gleaning current knowledge thru time), when they were
> alive. In fact I'm not sure that those two cases
> could be experimentally separated. Occams razor
> etc....G.
I had to look that one up Bill because I am ashamed to say I didn't know
what you meant. :-)..............
........................................................
Occam's Razor : is a principal of always preferring the simplest
explanation of events to any other. The principal of Occam's razor is
attributed to William of Occam, although there were philosophers before him
that had previously employed its use.
The principal states: "a person should not increase, beyond what is
necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything, or that the
person should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This
principle is often called the principle of parsimony."
The principal has played a major role in getting rid of fictitious or
unnecessary elements from explanations since as far back as the Middle Ages.
Bertrand Russell and other logicians got rid of traditional metaphysical
concepts by employing the use of Occam's Razor.
There is however some skepticism as to the extent to which the principal
can be applied; especially regarding whether or not a person can determine
without any doubt that the assumptions or given entities are not needed in
an explanation.
Source: Information taken from an extract in the Grolier Encyclopedia.
................................................................
I do like the third paragraph :-))
At the moment one man's (and woman's of course :-),
idea/guess/hypothesis/theory about he workings behind 'psi' related
phenomena is as valid as another's, (although some of the weirder ones seems
to have got themselves bogged down a bit in 'paragraph 3 thinking'...but who
am I to judge after that lot I have written above :-)...... and I agree that
we are probably talking about the same thing here (I think that's what you
were saying anyway :-), and must be very careful that we don't make it more
complicated than it actually may be.
However, the scientific approach has got to be the key. We must not go
down the road of thinking that something may be even remotely like what it
appears to be. :-).
Hope you got this far ...;-)),
Kind regards,
Glyn
Reply | Forward
#2006
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sat Jan 11, 2003 1:32 am
Subject: Re: to Glyn, Theories of Life the Universe and Everything :-) docsavagebill
> ...do you still think that
> consciousness is brain
> dependant in the first place...
Hi Glyn,
Sorry I'm way behind on this list..G. I believe
separate conciousness in a body is an illusion.
Although I first read this in Buddist Hindu and
Mystical Christian traditions..I never really believed
it until doing RV and attending Rob's classes. Then it
became very clear to me that we don't really go
anywhere during RV we just "remember" another part of
the Unity or Totality. Obviously difficult to
prove.. but to me it's the simplist explanation of
psi. The other models of a brain based psi..are all
like the old Radio Model which doesn't fit with
Electromagnetic tests of Psi.
> Re Robs seeing ghosts.... What do they do when not
> visiting people?
> If you're on this list
> please tell us more about that Rob.
Hi Glyn, I don't think Rob is on this list. He
doesn't spend a lot of time on the computer. He is on
Stargate if you post a question to him he usually
will answer in time. Rob sees ghosts almost every
evening. Some are his friends and some are drop ins.
He sees them as Auras without bodies, and hears and
feels them..albeit with psi senses.
Interestingly it was a "Spook" that taught Rob what he
was experiencing as a child. He was seeing and
perceiving so many psychic phenomenae, but his family
in rural Idaho just wooped him for talking about
it..G. Finally, a ghost came down and explained what
he was perceiving.. and how to avoid woopings. The
last class I took with Vivian two ghosts dropped in
and Rob asked them to allow us to feel their auras.
Which we all did.I was impressed at how respectfully
Rob treated the entities. And he was constantly
cautionaing us not to bump into them and jostle their
auras. Rob has talked to many people that had
messages for ones left behind and is often pestered
with contact wishes from entities. . He has verified
the contact 100's or 1000's of times. His current best
ghost buddy...is much like a regular friend. Rob
treats ghosts respectually but not at all like they
are channels of infinite wisdom.
What are they doing? Rob's ghost friends are not earth
bound ghosts. They come and go from their "ghost
worlds" at will. And drop in to visit Rob or other
sensitives..Rob says people doing psychic activity
including RV shine in the astral world as a bright
light..and astral beings frequently come to
investtigate..such as at Robs last class. I must say
that John Edwards show best describes Rob's
experiences with Ghosts are like.
> Hope you got this far ...;-)),
Here's the PROOF GLYN!
Hugs,
Bill
Reply | Forward
#1973
From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...om>" <031-7115905...om>
Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 4:28 am
Subject: Re: Time traveling ghosts bokindstrand
Hi Bill!
Isn't it more accurate to view it as it is, you are talking to
someone that has no brain anymore.
That's on characteristic that an OBE share with the dead, that you
leave your brain behind you. In the first case on the pillow and in
the second permanently in your leftbehind body.
Consciousness does exist without the brain as you point out.
Brain semmes to constitute some sort of voluntarily limitation
imposed on the Consciousness during lifetime, so it can
experience and operate in the three dimensional world.
I suppose there is some sort of meaning in this for all of us,
or if not perhaps the one responsible for this great show is
having a real good time!
Bo
Reply | Forward
#1947
From: "Linda & John Garvey"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 4:24 pm
Subject: RE: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) linda_g7us
> Nita wrote
>Another scrying tool is a magic mirror. You take a mirror and coat
>it with camomile tea. Let it dry and energize the outside of the
>mirror in the way you want to do it. You can use prayer to ask to see
>what you want to observe. You then view it in the mirror.
>It takes clearing your mind but then the pictures show up in the
>mirror. All of these are old methods.
Hi Nita --
Now this really does appeal to me. I am going to buy
some chamomile tea this afternoon and try it.
I have had some success with scrying, using
amethyst crystals. Thank you --
Linda G
"The distinction between past, present and future
is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one."
-- Albert Einstein --
Reply | Forward
#1950
From: Richard Krankoski
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) Rich_crv
> Moderator's note: It occurs to me that Tarot,
> like i-ching, might be better for 'conceptual',
> 'contextual', 'relationship' and 'situationally
> predictive' data than the kind of physical info
> RV is usually trying to describe. Not sure but
> it seems like those are more the strong points
> of those arts. -- PJ
Is that like saying 30% of the data applies to 30% of the targets?
or.... there are 12 adjectives that apply to 90% of all targets?
Rich
Reply | Forward
#1953
From: "Nita Hickok"
Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 10:39 am
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) nitahickok
Hello Rich
You would have to try a couple of the methods to experiment. Then
you would have to ask the questions and decide what good you think
the methods are for what you do or are doing.
It is always up to the individual to decide what is best to
accomplish what they want with what methods. It just might fill in
some of the gaps in information.
Nita
Reply | Forward
#1982
From: "PJ Gaenir "
Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 11:51 am
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) dennanm
> > I'd written:
> > Moderator's note: It occurs to me that Tarot,
> > like i-ching, might be better for 'conceptual',
> > 'contextual', 'relationship' and 'situationally
> > predictive' data than the kind of physical info
> > RV is usually trying to describe. Not sure but
> > it seems like those are more the strong points
> > of those arts. -- PJ
> Rich K wrote:
> Is that like saying 30% of the data applies to 30% of the targets?
No, but since that's demonstrably so in research, there we have it.
Of course it is difficult that situationally targets are probably
even more often alike than physically, in terms of what could be said
about then that one could, on feedback, 'find a way to make it fit'.
> or.... there are 12 adjectives that apply to 90% of all targets?
LOL, maybe so.
But no, I actually feel there is real value to most divinatory arts,
done properly and intelligently that is (even RV, without those
qualifications, ceases to be worthwhile!).
But you have to consider that measurement is affected by the tool.
Just like until the dark field microscope, in order to see certain
things, we had to kill it, stain it, and stick it under an electron
microscope. So a whole lot of fascinating and even profound things
were not seen, because our tool and our method for looking greatly
biased what we _could_ see -- and _how_ we would see things when we
could.
In psi research, there really needs to be a sort of right/wrong sort
of answer to things. You really cannot measure, let alone calculate
statistics based on results, "amorpheous" or "generalized" results.
One reason psi research was often picked on is because no matter how
logical and factual and automated the process got, there was always
a 'judge' needed, and it didn't matter who it was or even if four
different people did it and the results were averaged -- still, it
was a "subjective" decision.
The non-psi scientists hated that because it was subjective, and
science as a field in our culture (not necessarily fundamentally) is
the very process of attempted objectivity. The psi scientists are
frustrated because if Decision Augmentation Theory holds up -- which
in a nutshell says the psi for a correct decision in judging is just
as likely to be the judge's psi as the viewer's (like people doing
tarot or tea leaves, grafting the info/patterns onto whatever
witness -- physical medium -- is the focus, such as the judged
session -- is in front of them), then the inability to actually
PREVENT psi in the process (on the part of the judges) makes the
entire process of allegedly judging the psi of the psychics somewhat
arbitrary and maybe even pointless! This goes for the study of psi
as an entire field -- some researchers seem "psi conducive" and some
aren't, this is referred to as "experimenter effect", and it seems to
affect psi research more than anything else (but it does in fact
affect other fields as well of course).
This creates an impossible loop, if you think through trying to
resolve it. Like:
OK, so we judge a psychic's session, but maybe the psychic is doing
well or not based on the psi or the belief systems of the person
(s) "leading" the experiment. Or maybe the session accuracy is
really up to the judge in any case and it is their psi. So maybe we
should be testing either the scientist or the judge instead of the
psychic, for psi! OK, we make them the psychic. Now to run it we
have to have a scientist, and we have to measure which requires a
judge.... it's a loop!
The current pre-stimulus response experimental series that May and
Spottiswoode are doing, although not the first research along these
lines, is the first done with the current method and analysis; it's
really the first totally non-subjective psi research on individuals,
and stands a good chance of getting a whole lot more attention and
credit than most any psi research in quite awhile.
Anyway I'm getting off track here. The point of all this was that in
my view, it is difficult to test things like tarot or i-ching in "a
controlled situation with an objective measure (or even a subjective
measure that was controlled enough to result in a generally objective
statistic)."
Their strength is in aspects of data that are a little more difficult
to nail down than most physical targets.
I said difficult though, not impossible. One could certainly select
a target pool that is as intelligently designed as the current
research RV pools are, where targets are in categories, and a
category is randomly selected, and then an item within that category
is randomly selected, several, and then these are presented for the
judging to compare to the session (already done), and THEN one of
those items is randomly selected and assigned as the target.
To study tarot or i-ching, I think one could choose targets with
specific events, or contexts, or relationship issues, that these
methods are likely to be able to get decent information about. For
example, I would expect a session in either art to make my choice
between, say, a plane crash vs. a Miss America contest to probably be
clear -- even if the data was symbolic, still I'd think that OFTEN
(not always) such disparate targets could be chosen from.
However it'd leave us in the same boat with the experimenter and the
judge. :-)
PJ
Reply | Forward
#1958
From: greenmn900...
Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 8:20 am
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Nita,
I tend to agree that Ouija boards involve something different than what is
occurring with scrying, clairvoyance, or RV. I have nothing to back this up
other than the experiences others have told to me, but their stories are
coupled with a strong feeling I have about staying away from them. So I do.
Best regards,
Don
Reply | Forward
#1968
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) docsavagebill
Hi Don,
You remind me of Bevy Jaeggers..G . I always argued
with her about this. My limited experiences with Ouiga
boards were all fun and never negative. But I know
others have had problems. Perhaps there is such an
overall world wife BELEIF about Ouiga boards that
using one automatically connects one to some
questionable gateways.
Bill
Reply | Forward
#1970
From: greenmn900...
Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Hi Bill,
I don't really have much experience with Ouija boards at all. I'm mostly
going by what I've read and what others have told me about their bad
experiences.
But there's another reason I stay away from Ouija boards that's a little more
personal. Ever since I was a child I've dealt with unwanted and unexpected
apparitions off and on (I only recently learned my little sister does, too),
so I tend to be little on the careful side when it comes to these kinds of
issues. I think I'm what people used to call a "sensitive". I can perceive
energies, whether positive or negative (I'd bet most of the people on this
list do the same thing), but the negative ones are the most impacting. Some
"entities" (for lack of a better term) have a vibration that feels just
utterly evil. Ouija boards give me that same feeling - so I stay away from
them. But I don't feel that I know enough about them to counsel other people
on what to do. To each his own...
When this topic came up, I remembered I had a book on the Ouija board packed
away somewhere. Last night I went out to the garage and rifled through a
bunch of boxes until I found it - then I stayed up all night reading, lol.
It's a small but really good book, very balanced and open minded and full of
opinions from different people in the parapsychology field. It also has a
lot of case histories. It's called "Ouija, The Most Dangerous Game", by
Stoker Hunt, published by Harper & Row, 1985. Despite the biased-sounding
title, it's really a very balanced approach to the subject.
It said that the origins of the ouija board are very ancient. Apparently,
there were forms of it in use in China prior to 479 B.C., in Rome in the 3rd
century A.D., and Pythagoras in Greece in 550 B.C. encouraged his students to
use a Ouija-like device to unearth revelations "from the unseen world".
One thing the book brought out that I guess I had forgotten is the amazingly
high number of famous channelers and automatic writers that began with a
Ouija board before graduating to the abilities they later became known for.
People like Jane Roberts ("Seth"), Pearl Curran ("Patience Worth"), and
Pulitzer Prize-winning James Merrill, who says his lengthiest poetic work,
"The Changing Light at Sandover" (which is a 3-volume trilogy) was co-written
with communications he received from a Ouija board. Two parts of that
trilogy, which was released in small sections or books, won literary awards.
I DID find something in the book that kind of clicked with me regarding a
possible reason people seem to encounter evil or mischevious entities when
using Ouija boards, so much more so than with other forms of divination.
Apparently the company that first made the boards in America, The Baltimore
Talking Board Company, went to court against the IRS. The IRS claimed the
boards were games, and therefore taxable. Arguing for the Ouija board
company, Allen Fisher said, "...We contend that it is a form of amateur
mediumship and not a game or sport. By means of this board one is enabled to
get in touch with the other side." Another attorney, Washington Bowie,
described the board as "a medium of communication between this world and the
next". Could it be possible that the intentions of the manufacturer of the
ouija board has some effect on how it works? Of course psychology calls it
"automatism" and claims the information is coming from the subconscious,
parapsychologists agree; with the exception that under those conditions
psi-information is available as well as communicating with the dead. But I
wonder if the manufacturers' intentions have any impact?
A very interesting idea I found in this book is to use the planchette from a
Ouija board for map-dowsing! It *should* work just like the pendulum. Since
I'm not a very good dowser ("not very good" - actually, I suck, lol!), I'm
considering making a planchette-type device myself and seeing if it doesn't
work better than the pendulum. An intersting idea, I thought.
I wish I could just download this book and email it to all you guys. It's
really very good.
Best Regards,
Don
----------------------------
Moderator's note: Merrill's 'The Changing Light at Sandover' is one of the most
amazing books. I've had it half-read for about 15 years. The book is nearly an
"epic poem" in a way. The entire thing is written based on Ouija
communications, as well as a sort of prosic-poetic journal narrative of
Merrill's life. He was a homosexual and a lot of people are put off by the fact
that he was obviously in a relationship with another man. But I found the book
simply mind boggling. He talks about a lot of personal stuff (like his mate's
serious health issues) as well as all his own reaction to what was happening
with them.
I was getting to a point in the book where the entities in SOME cases were
frankly beginning to remind me of some of the things I've heard about The
Urantia Book. -- A channeled work. Unfortunately, although I have that book,
it is the singularly most BORING book on earth, at least the first part of it.
If you took the biblical "and X begat Y" and you assigned to it politics instead
of genetics, and you imagined the largest, most insanely bureaucratic government
possible if you had a whole universe to govern, and then someone wrote a book
detailing every damned position and authority -- that's the Urantia book.
I've had people tell me some stuff in it correlates with some of my
'Bewilderness' stuff, but I have yet to find anything in the book about this. I
guess the Noshaimus are discussed... somewhere... but I didn't have the
fortitude to keep reading to find it. :-) 'The Changing Light at Sandover' is
NOT for the faint of heart. It is probably the most dense, slow reading book --
and it's the size of a tome -- imaginable. -- PJ
pjrv : Messages : 1935-2054 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/1935?)
23:39:26
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------
#1935
From: Timelord2029...
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 9:42 am
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) psitrooper24
Hmmm
interesting discussion. Ive always wanted to at least TRY using
a quija board but cant find the the courage to use one:)
I dont believe in dabling so i probably will never use one
until i know HOW it works and what the dangers are.
Recently (two days ago) i saw a movie called "Long Time Dead"
british film made 2 years ago. All the actors died at the hands of
a gin or jin or whatever it was they "summoned" from the beyond
using a quija board.
Ive read postive acounts of quija uses such as the book
Messages From Michael (channeled work all from a quija board)
My wife doesent want anything to do with a quija board as she
has seen the effects from college students who messed with it.
Is this a belief thing here or are entities actually being summoned
from our own imagination.?
How does this really work and is it as dangerous as people make out?
Peace,
Tunde
Reply | Forward
#1938
From: "Nita Hickok"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 3:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) nitahickok
Hi Tunde
I personally have seen the havoc that ouija boards can cause
people. It all depends upon your stability and control but I
basically agree with your wife. I don't have one in my house and a
lot of other things can be used to get the same results that don't
have the dangers of a ouija board.
I used one when I was a teenager and my sister had a really bad
experience with it.
Nita
Reply | Forward
#1939
From: "Sharon Webb"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) sharwebb_30512
Tunde,
It's a belief thing. I'm sure of this. If you expect demons, you get
demons...and that's true of many events that have nothing to do with Ouija
boards.
I don't think it's dangerous. At least it hasn't been for me and I started with
the Ouija when I was about five years old. (Don't use it anymore, but that's
not because of fear.)
I _think_ one of the problems with it, besides bad press, is that it is marketed
as a "game." It is possible to get in touch with all sorts of beings and
entities, but if you approach it as a game...and add to that drugs or
drink...then you might run into some problems.
It is simply a focus. The Ouija is a piece of wood with a plastic counter.
Nothing more. There is nothing intrinsic within it to cause the sort of fear
that many have. It is not "evil." Fear is due to beliefs, and, I am a believer
in "you create your own reality." If you believe in ghoulies and ghosties and
long-legged beasties and things that go bump in the night, then you will
manifest them. It is a focus no different than tarot, or scrying mirrors, or
contemplating your navel, or determining the mushiness of the paper under your
pencil point. :-)
Sharon
sharwebb...net
www.fractalus.com/sharon
Reply | Forward
#1942
From: greenmn900...
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 11:07 am
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Chris,
> You Wrote:
> "As the new kid on the block (Kid? Who am I
> kidding?) please excuse any lapses in group etiquette."
Welcome aboard!
That was a great story. I know a few people and have read of many more who
became the victim of poltergeist phenomena soon after becoming involved with
ouija boards. These kinds of occurrences seem somewhat unique to this one
method of divination for some reason. My theory is that it's because most
people who use ouija boards are specifically trying to communicate with some
other entity. Whereas, in most other forms of divination, they are not.
This may also be the reason for so much non-sensical information coming from
them, too. I don't know.
> You Wrote:
> "As a group you speak of skills way beyond my level."
We might be a bit misleading here. I often talk about specific sessions with
unique or advanced kinds of data that were amazing hits. It's important to
remember that those kinds of things don't happen all the time and some of
them are really pretty rare. I guess we talk about those kinds of things
because it gets pretty boring talking about misses, lol! So, we probably all
sound better than we really are. I know that even though I've made vast
improvements over the last 4 years, I still have complete misses all the
time. In fact, about 25-35% of all my sessions are misses, and then there's
an additional amount where I've just barely made target contact.
We all have to start somewhere and I think we all can make incredible
progress through consistent, quality practice. So don't feel alone, none of
us are perfect and all of us were in exactly the same place you are now.
Good luck and it's nice to have you as part of the group.
Best Regards,
Don
Reply | Forward
#1955
From: "chriscordenuk "
Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) chriscordenuk
Thanks for the welcome Don. You wrote:
> I know a few people and have read of many more who
> became the victim of poltergeist phenomena soon after becoming
> involved with ouija boards. These kinds of occurrences seem
> somewhat unique to this one method of divination for some reason.
> My theory is that it's because most people who use ouija boards are
> specifically trying to communicate with some
> other entity. Whereas, in most other forms of
> divination, they are not.
> This may also be the reason for so much non-sensical
> information coming from them, too. I don't know.
Do you see the basement incident as poltergeist activity? I rather
felt as if I was there, in that time. Or still asleep! I have had one
other definate occasion when I time shifted in broad daylight while
sitting in a parked car. However this involved looking at a building
in a clearly defined area. At other times it has been possible to
gain the 'impression' of people who would have been there. At times
just as shadowy costumed shapes. It's possible I just have a vivid
imagination!
As for the other incident with the sheets of paper that fell like
lead. That certainly has the poltergeist hallmark. However there was
a follow up. I had kept the sheets of paper for a number of years and
was going to throw them away during a clear out. In case they held
any latent power I decided that rather than bin them I would burn
them. When put on the fire they burnt very quickly with an unnatural
pinky/blue flame.
Again I include this information without any further comment, other
than to say it seemed to be a perfectly ordinary bonfire. And perhaps
to observe that over the years I have learnt to avoid the word
impossible.
Chris
Reply | Forward
#1943
From: "Linda & John Garvey"
Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) linda_g7us
> Nita wrote
> I used one when I was a teenager and my
> sister had a really bad
> experience with it.
I would not have anything to do with ouija boards.
In the 1960s, a couple of years before my husband John and I
met, he and a few of his buddies decided to use a ouija board
to get answers to some questions, etc. They
did not believe in spirits or anything like that, much
less call upon any.
They ended up having a terrifying experience nonetheless.
Forget it. I will stick with the safer methods. So, Tunde,
John and I, too, agree with your wife, and with Nita. :)
Linda G
"The distinction between past, present and future
is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one."
-- Albert Einstein --
Reply | Forward
#1962
From: greenmn900...
Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 9:12 am
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
Hi Chris,
> You wrote:
> "Do you see the basement incident as poltergeist activity?"
Probably not. But the papers feeling very heavy sure sounds like it.
Without having been there, it's hard for me to have a definite opinion. I
have noticed though, that poltergeist phenomena following the consultation of
a ouija board seems to be a strangely common experience for a lot of people.
It doesn't seem to happen when people consult other kinds of oracles.
I played with a ouija board only once, witha group of friends when I was
about 12 years old. Nothing happened and we had no strange experiences
afterward either, so all I have to go on is what I've heard or read about
from others.
Best Regards,
Don
Reply | Forward
#1985
From: greenmn900...
Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 7:51 am
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) greenmn900...
PJ,
> you wrote:
> "One reason psi research was often picked on is because no matter how
> logical and factual and automated the process got, there was always
> a 'judge' needed, and it didn't matter who it was or even if four
> different people did it and the results were averaged -- still, it
> was a "subjective" decision.
> The non-psi scientists hated that because it was subjective, and
> science as a field in our culture (not necessarily fundamentally) is
> the very process of attempted objectivity."
How does this relate to other, more accepted fields? Is there any way to
"prove" the mental state of hypnosis that satisfies non-psi scientists? How
about generally-held theories in the areas of psychology and sociology? It
seems to me they are every bit as subjective in evaluation as psi is, and yet
they are generally accepted. I don't know anything about these areas, but I
know you are well-versed in hypnosis. I wonder is psi is being held to a
higher standard than any of the other "soft" sciences.
I was thinking of the results on insane patients' behavior when they used to
do frontal lobotomies. From what I understand they don't do them anymore.
Wasn't the evaluations of patients that swung this decision a very subjective
one?
What hard proof is there to back-up the idea of mental states such as
schizophrenia or psychosis? Isn't it all based on very subjective
evaluations of patient behavior? is subjectivity held as a strike against
the evidence for psi but not for anything else?
Warm Regards,
Don
---------------------------
Moderator's note: No. That is one reason psychology is a so-called 'soft
science' while neurology is a 'hard science'. Some scientists in parapsychology
say they would like to change the name, that the name itself infers a great deal
about it all, and that there is no reason to model after psychology when that
field has been an abysmal failure in so many regards. But of course,
psychologists don't feel that way about it, lol. PJ
Reply | Forward
#2048
From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) maliolana
Aloha Sharon,
}It's a belief thing. I'm sure of this. If you expect demons, you get
demons...and that's true of many events that have nothing to do with
Ouija boards.(
That is my experience exactly...I never had any problems with the
board...It is only a tool...same as tarot/I ching/runes...which I have
also used for 3 or more decades...
I did have one friend that went over the deep end though...She was told
that she would marry her boyfriend and that he would have her committed
to an insane asylum...and divorce her...and so she proceeded to loose her
mind...and was committed to an asylum...and of course he dumped her
before that..she never did get married...
None of my other friends had this problem...Of course after that...I
worried about the other people I might be doing it with...so
stopped......but I do have two boards still in my posession...as well
as my Iching coins and tarot cards...
I also believe it has everything to do with ones belief systems...I have
not believed in the devil for many years...so...I do not see things along
that line...
although I do have a few lessor selves...that need a lot of work and
occasionally get stupid...hahah...but none of them are evil......or
paranoid of evil...just a bit still in the ruff...
The only way I can see how a board might be dangerous ...is if it perhaps
belonged to someone that practiced doing nefarious stuff to others with
it...Perhaps their vibes are still attached...but in that case ...it
could just be washed/purified... and actually I was always taught... this
was a good practice to do with most things ...when they have belonged to
another person...to get their vibes off it...
Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reply | Forward
#2049
From: "Sharon Webb"
Date: Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) sharwebb_30512
Dawn,
I do believe it is all beliefs, but beliefs can be dangerous.
In order to explain what I'm about to say, I need to give a bit of background.
Three times and ONLY three times in my life, when I have been giving
readings...or what have you...I have "heard" a very commanding voice. It is a
quiet voice, and yet intense. So intense that it INSTANTLY gets my attention.
It calls itself Control. And I have tried many times to ask more about just
what the nature of "Control" is, but each time I have fallen asleep before I got
an answer.
Anyway, I was at a science fiction convention, and we were playing with tarot
cards, and palm readings. One woman who lived in town said that she would bring
a Ouija board the next night...and we would try it out with a guy named Charlie.
Now, Charlie was a self-avowed skeptic...but we all felt that he was a bit stiff
and could use a bit of "unbending." We thought it would be fun, so the woman
promised to bring the board.
As soon as she left, "Control" popped in. Now each time this has happened it
has been to ward off possible "harm" to someone else.
The voice said, "This is Control. Under no circumstances allow Charlie to use
the board."
That was it. But it was something I just couldn't ignore. And then it came to
me WHY. Charlie was SUPPOSEDLY an agnostic and skeptic. But he came from a
very religious family and his father was a minister and his agnosticism was
largely posturing. I suddenly realized, with a chill, that if he were to use
the board, DUE TO HIS BELIEFS, he would become possessed.
So...I headed off the woman...and we never exposed Charlie to the Ouija.
Sharon
sharwebb...net
www.fractalus.com/sharon
Reply | Forward
#2054
From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ouija (was Thoughts; 2003) maliolana
Aloha Sharon,
}That was it. But it was something I just couldn't ignore. And then it
came to me WHY. Charlie was SUPPOSEDLY an agnostic and skeptic. But he
came from a very religious family and his father was a minister and his
agnosticism was largely posturing. I suddenly realized, with a chill,
that if he were to use the board, DUE TO HIS BELIEFS, he would become
possessed.{
I feel the same way...One must be careful turning
people onto alternate realities ...they are not equipped
to handle...especially because of latent/repressed fears...
can be very deadly ...to a vulnerable persons psyche...
I always tell anyone that I do the I-Ching or tarot for (freebees)
that I am just reading the cards for them...The cards are handled
by them and I just interpret and incourage them to 'help me' inter-
pret them......
I also tell them they do not need to tell me their question...Just to
meditate a few moments ...get their question clear...specific...so the
answers will be clear/specific as well...and then to warm/give energy/
put their mana...on the coins/cards... they are holding... before they
throw/lay them down...They always seem real pleased...so I guess it
worked?...haha
I also show them how to set it up/make/figure/count the diagrams for
themselves if they are interested...just as my friends taught me... I
still
read them the book version before I try to
interpret...haha...everytime...
after all these years you would think I would have it
memorized...hahah...
and then I encourage them to analyze the cards...tell themselves what
they
see and how it applies to their question...I don't really think it is me
per se...
I think it is just intuition...on my part...much like your
control...except not quite as life saving...
Lots of folks seem to think they have worked through their problems with
their childhood religion and deep down have truly never let go...In spite
of what they tell themselves...
I was lucky...I began working that out in puberty...piece by piece...over
the years...I revisited my belief systems...and still do...I guess I
finally attained true agnosticism...(except I am partial to pagan values
...other than idolatry/
sacrifice/etc.... haha)...Never did like the devil stories...even when I
was a believer...
Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna
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