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From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:55 am Subject: Precognitive Lucid Dream - Warning long gebega Hello all, I know PJ likes experiential posts so I thought I'd post this. Some years ago I was very interested in lucid dreams and I will always remember an account that one of the guys posted on a newsgroup I was on at the time, so I searched the archives and found it back in 1998. I have used his words, only removing personal detail. I am sure he wouldn't mind me retelling this account. Obviously I have no way of validating it, but if true it is amazing, and the detail of the dream recall understandable to anyone who has had lucid dreams themselves. His words paint a good picture, so even though it is long, it is worth the read I think :-). ................................................................................ ......................................... I dreamed I was driving my '78 Sport Impala during pre-dawn on what is known locally as Death Alley; Hiway 12 between my hometown and Rio Vista in north central California. I knew in the dream that I needed to drive with all senses open and remember paying particular attention to my rear-view mirror and the vehicle directly behind me. He kept getting too close and I politely slowed on straight stretches, seeing as how we seemed to have the road pretty much to ourselves, but he did not take advantage of my overtures. So, I speeded up until there was quite a distance between us and he was kind enough not to push things further. I became aware that I was dreaming as I bent to my right to change cassettes in my stereo because my stereo was now in the dashboard instead of in the glove compartment where it was in reality. I had left the dashboard devoid of a radio after having had one stolen a couple months prior and had gone to considerable trouble to mount my new stereo in the normally hidden glove compartment. I nearly woke up when I realized I was dreaming but "steadied" myself through practiced methods perfected for myself for just such cases and decided to insert a cassette mentally without the physical motions normally involved and seconds later Guns and Roses' "Use Your Illusions II" blared out on my mental "quad" system's speakers and I let the music dominate the scene for awhile. Unsure as to why, I found that I needed to turn left onto a little used road, requiring me to become aware again of my surroundings. In anticipation of the turn coming up which would necessitate my hugging the center line and trusting the vehicle behind me to come around my right side partially on the "shoulder" of the road, I turned on my left blinker for 3 flashes then turned it off, looking into the mirror at the vehicle behind. He evidently got the message because, to my relief, he backed off even further. At this same time, as I began to decelerate, a line of big rig trucks came over a small rise a quarter mile ahead travelling in the opposite direction at high speed. I needed to make a decision at this point; should I come to a full stop on this dangerous roadway and allow the trucks to pass, relying on the driver behind to come around properly, or should I brake hard then turn in front of the approaching trucks that were barreling downhill towards me at 75kph, but in doing so relieve my worry about being rear-ended by the driver behind? Checking once more my rearview mirror and making sure my left hand blinker was operating full time now, I saw that the driver behind had already anticipated my move and what was required of him and had started to move to his right to pass and go on his way. So, I came to a complete stop, allowing the trucks unobstructed through-way and even remember giving the driver behind me a little "thank you" wave as he now came around my right hand side. I relaxed, waiting for the WHOOSH WHOOSH of the trucks to cease so I could make my turn. I recall making sure that my wheels were still pointed straight ahead as I had learned years before as a protection against being pushed into the path of oncoming traffic as a result of being rear-ended and in retrospect, this probably saved my and others' lives&(make note new drivers!!). I leaned over to turn up the volume of the stereo to 11 on a 10 scale- Axl was wailing really good on my dream-stereo, and just as I straightened back up to see if all the trucks had passed, WHAAAAMMMM!!!! My world went topsy turvy and all I could think of was "why am I looking at the ceiling?" and what was all those pretty sparkling things flying around the inside of my car? I woke up with a start and immediately started speaking into my ever-handy voice activated micro cassette recorder I always keep on the table next to my bed. (Glyns Note: This guy was carrying out research into lucid dreams at the time, which is why it was so handy) (Fifteen days later): Well, I got a job to shoot the promo pictures for a new client's advert brochure and he requested I take some early morning pictures of his company's building to take advantage of the golden early light. I agreed, wrote the directions to his manufacturing plant way out "in the sticks" between my hometown and Rio Vista, about 45Km to the east off Hiway 12. At the time, I didn't make the mental connection between my new client's office and the dream from 15 days prior and made the necessary plans to get up at 4 am the next day with all my camera gear. So, there I was driving on Hiway 12 in the pre-dawn, just me and this one vehicle behind me and I suddenly remembered the dream about 5 miles before the left hand turn I would need to make. Smiling yet more than a little chagrined, I put in "Use Your Illusions" and turned it up, feeling rather smug that I was now prepared, if need be, to change reality due to my precognitive dream and indeed, events proceeded just as in the dream. Double checking my mirrors I saw absolutely no other vehicle behind me but the one I saw in my dream. This worried me a little because if events were to play out as foretold, there MUST be another car behind him; but there wasn't¬ that I could tell as I tried to look "beyond" the glare of his headlights in the mirror. So, I put on the blinker, turned it off, slowed, turned on my blinker again as I checked the mirror and indeed, the driver behind backed off and started drifting to the right in anticipation of going around my side. The trucks crested the hill in front of me- 6 of them in a tight "convoy" formation, going quite fast. I came to a stop, looking a final time in my mirror as the guy came around the right side and I gave him a little wave. There were NO HEADLIGHTS to be seen for a couple of miles behind me; I SWEAR! Then, feeling as if I'd avoided any problems and making sure my wheels were still straight ahead, I leaned over to turn up the rockin tunes and, yep, WHAAAAMMM!!!! A drunk driver, driving with his headlights off, didn't see me stopped in the middle of the road and drove into my back seat at full speed without ever applying his brakes. This happened 2 seconds before the first truck in line passed me by and if I'd turned my wheels in anticipation of the turn, they'd STILL be picking my teeth out from that truck's front grill! Luckily, since I did not anticipate the crash, thereby being totally relaxed, I came out of it unhurt. The seat-back broke upon impact, throwing me into a reclining position, looking up at the ceiling and those pretty little sparkly things I saw in my dream was my shattered rear window flying around the interior of my car, lit by the lights of the passing trucks. So, there you have it. Lessons to be learned? Well, you have to keep in mind that I had no idea exactly *what* it was that hit me in the dream. It could have been a metorite, a small airplane, I just didn't know. Even if I *had* assumed that there was a drunken driver out there without headlights at 5 in the morning, and had gone to the next turn-out and made a U-turn, thereby changing the parameters of the event, was there any guarantee that I'd have seen the car as I pulled back around, going across it's path? I just don't know. The real lesson, I think, is to simply pay more attention to your dreams and "second" guess yourself when the evidence is overwhelming. END Reply | Forward


From: Barbara Baumgardner Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 10:46 am Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - Warning long threebears4u Hi Glyn, Wow--That was a fantastic account of a lucid dream and it shows just how accurate that they can be. I wonder if it ran through the guy's mind to change his routine somewhat that day (just in case the dream was right). Hummmm Your story was a lesson for me.....to trust intuition...something I am still learning. Years ago I used to get answers in the dream state-I would ask a question before bed and I would have the answer before morning. Sometimes the answer would come from a voice and sometimes from a picture. I just recently started getting these lucid dreams again. I would 'see' the answers to questions I have had in my mind. Thank you for sharing, Barbara Reply | Forward


From: "Eva" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 2:05 pm Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - Warning long k9caninek9 I have to say that after having such a dream, I would not have tempted fate. It would have been a simple plan to choose a diff option like driving ahead and doubling back or pulling over early, letting cars pass, and then getting back on the road. I find it hard to believe the average person would choose to do it all just exactly the same and see if they got clobbered again. -E Reply | Forward


From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:13 pm Subject: RE: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream (Part II) gebega Hi Eva and all, > I find it hard to believe the average person would > choose to do it all just exactly the same and see > if they got clobbered again. -E Yes, I must admit I'd feel the same way Eva :-) . I'd probably have scuttled back in the opposite direction quicker than a chicken with a scorched tail (does that count PJ? LOL!:-), but I don't know....perhaps sheer fascination would have kept me goin. I have no corroboration that this is a true account I know, but I had no reason to think that he was 'shooting a line' at the time, and it has always fascinated me. I spoke to him about it afterward, and just in case you or anyone else is interested here's a (fairly) short version of what was said. Incidentally, I don't mention RV, because I was not into it at the time. ........................................................... Glyn said: > Wow, that was amazing! You were very lucky, dream or not. > One of the more interesting ideas to help explain precognition (although > I'm aware that there must be lots of precog events where this wouldn't > 'fit'), is that in the dream you would be experiencing your own memory > of a future event. At the core of this idea is that in some states of > altered consciousness we can go outside our normal view of time, and > access our memories in the future; *after* the actual event has taken > place. > > In the same way that our normal memories of past events can be > distorted, (especially if we have a bad memory anyway), our 'future > memories' are also subject to distortion, which is why the precognitive > experience often does not correspond exactly with the real event. > 'P' said: > Thank you for that. An interesting idea indeed! Glyn said: >There are some parallels that deserve further thought. > What if you had been killed? Would you have still had the precognitive > dream? If so, that kind of blows the future memory theory into the > weeds...unless you're accessing yourself in another time-line; that of > course is yet another idea, but it starts to get very complicated. 'P' said: > I have to believe that if I were to have forseen injury or worse in the > dream I would have tried to take corrective action. Glyn said: > Did remembering the dream just before the accident save your life > because you *ensured* your wheels were pointing straight ahead.....or > are you sure you would have done so anyway? 'P' said: Good point; since nothing positive has resulted from this incident (I lost my car, my camera outfit and was fined for not being insured, even though it was not my fault) I would like to believe that by posting this dream and resulting crash that perhaps one of those reading this who might otherwise have been in the habit of turning one's wheels before turning would think twice and perhaps save himself from being pushed into oncoming traffic. If indeed that is the case, then the dream has served it's purpose to my satisfaction. Glyn said: > Why didn't you 'remember' the drunk driver with no lights? He was so > central to the events, but there was no hint of him in your dream. Was > it because your first memory of the accident, on which the dream was > based (when you were lying looking at the shiny glass) didn't contain > him? 'P' said: Another good point Glyn. Again, I awoke just after the collision, not really sure if I'd been hit by another driver, a meteorite or what...and again, in reality I DID triple-check my mirrors and was assured by my senses that there was no danger. Perhaps if I HAD changed things; say, going to the next intersection and making a Uturn, perhaps I would have been T-boned by the same drunk driver with no headlights...the timing would have been right for that...so, who knows. 'L' suggested that I almost deserved what happened by purposely seeing the parallels but took no action to change it. I can't argue with that kind of thinking. I knew when I posted it that someone would suggest it. All I can say is that I took all reasonable precautions anyone would take to assure myself that there was no danger and lost the bet. I would simply say in my defense though that I HAVE had similar precognitions and indeed *did* change reality saving myself the foreseen outcome. I've researched, both professionally and personally, all these types of altered states for more than 25 years and would not knowingly put myself into jeapardy. > Glyn said: > The dream corresponded to the actual event remarkably.....possibly > because you were lucid and you were able to remember it more clearly > (?) Also it would have helped if your first memory (the one you > accessed) of the actual event, was clear and not at that time distorted > by imagination and other associations. > 'P' said: The whole thing with precognition is messy to work with...I've yet to see anything in the media, be it literature or TV or whatever that can resolve all the issues involved. Some, like "Earth, Final Conflict" do a reasonable job. Tonite I saw a replay where one of the lines concerning "precognitive visions" went something like "We Talons believe the future *can* be foresee and *changed* but we don't tempt fate". I like that. ----- END ---------------- See Eva, I was boring everyone with thoughts about future memory theory back then too. LOL!! Interesting though, however it may have happened. Hope most of you found it so. Kind regards, Glyn Reply | Forward


From: "Linda & John Garvey" Date: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:48 pm Subject: RE: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream (Part II) linda_g7us > Glyn wrote: > I was boring everyone with thoughts about future > memory theory back then too. LOL!! > Interesting though, however it may have happened. > Hope most of you found it so. Glyn, Boring...?! Certainly not! Future memory is a fascinating, important topic, IMO. I am glad you posted all this. Linda G "The distinction between past, present and future is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one." -- Albert Einstein -- Reply | Forward


From: Bill Pendragon Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - docsavagebill Hi Glyn, Interesting account . Lucid dreams can be amazing.And here is a case I did pay attention. A couple of months ago.. I came to a dental appointment ..very very sleep deprived having stayed up late to get a report ready.. I sat in the dental chair which was in front a a huge window and felt the warm sun on my face..The dental student gave me injections of aneasthetic and walked away for a few minutes. During that time I fell asleep without the SLIGHTEST hint that I had fallen asleep. I felt the warmth of the un on my face and saw the light thru my closed eyelids..but never noticed I had slipped into a lucid dream..until the dental student came back and asked me to open my ( dream mouth) ..when I looked at him..he was the same except that his hair now went straight up like a cartoon character and he had a wild crazy shirt on..and a crazy manic look in his eyes. Evertything else was the same.. At that point I realized I was actually in a lucid dream and started having fun looking around at people to see what else had changed. I noticed a few other people had changed shirts etc..but were otherwise the same. I was about to get out of the "dream chair" but remembered that the student was probably thinking I had fainted or something..and would get worried if I stayed unconcious.so I tryed to "wake up"..but the feeling was more like being turned inside out..and it was not comfortable.. when I was awake..the scene was exactly the same but my "student" not longer looked like a maniac dentist from Sat. night live. .. I changed dental students after that..G Bill __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Reply | Forward


From: "Eva" Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:16 pm Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - k9caninek9 This might explain all those times I hit the snooze button, then got up, brushed my teeth and hair, got in the shower, got dressed, and then woke up again. Because the whole thing had been a dream to start with and I had to do it all over again for real, LOL! -E > Interesting account . Lucid dreams can be amazing.And > here is a case I did pay attention. ---------------------------- Moderator's note: I hate it when that happens. :-) I used to do that as a kid constantly. I would dream I got up and brushed my hair, which got terribly tangled in bed, or went to the bathroom, and have a seriously lucid (but non-aware) dream -- utterly real -- then wake up and realize I'd been dreaming, and this could literally go on 30 times in a row. I had constant lucid dreams as a kid, many at will, from an early age so I always related this to that skill. One time I was sleepwalking and remembered it as a lucid dream, and was real surprised to hear everyone else's account of it. (I was walking and talking and so forth, but in a wierd way. Hit the toggle button which happened to turn OFF the lights at the top of the stairs, turned them back on at the bottom for example. :-) However, I followed suggestion meekly when commanded.) I really sympathized with Joe's account in The Stargate Chronicles about his lucid dream research experiments -- and repeatedly coming back to utterly real realities, some of which he might have been stuck in (!?) and then realizing something was wrong and going back to sleep, so he could try waking up again. How terrifying. I'm reminded of an account in a Casteneda book about alternate realities and two people nearly getting stuck in one. Sometimes I wonder if people 'accidentally' get shifted into 'alternate realities' more than we think. I had a really long period of time when I really believed that I had done this -- lost my 'home' reality and shifted into an alternate timeline of sorts -- it just felt wrong, and certainly a lot of "me" was pretty different than it had been previously, which no easy answer as to why. I've known people who have gone on vacation say, and during their trip, were overcome with that feeling, but didn't know what to do about it, and when returning home, swore things were 'different' and it seemed like not-quite the right reality to them, but didn't how to get out again. Richard Bach talks about that in "ONE". I dunno though, I totally believed his far out accounts until he basically admitted much was fiction. That really blew me away. I'm convinced some of my personal experiences happened just because I *believed* they could, based on his! LOL! PJ Reply | Forward


From: aeonblueau8008... Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - terri8008 > Bill writes.... > but the feeling > was more like being turned inside out..and it was not > comfortable.. that's exactly what OOBEs feel like to me, and I have often described them as such, falling in (or out) then turning inside out. hard to describe, but I like it or am accustomed to it. If I take the cellophane wrapper off a pack of cigarettes and turn it inside out, (it gets, appears, larger but you can still see thru it) that's the closest I can come to demoing the OOBE from my perspective. all the best ~T~* Reply | Forward


From: Bill Pendragon Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:13 pm Subject: Re: Precognitive Lucid Dream - docsavagebill Hi Terri, I wondered if it might not be an OBE..but since I did not get up and view my body in the chair I was not sure. But htat inside out feeling was VERY definite. Best Regards, Bill > that's exactly what OOBEs feel like to me, and I > have often described them as > such, falling in (or out) then turning inside out. Reply | Forward


From: "Glyn" Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:49 am Subject: RE: Precognitive Lucid Dream - gebega Hi Bill, > You said..... > I tryed to "wake up"..but the feeling > was more like being turned inside out..and it was not > comfortable.. when I was awake..the scene was exactly > the same but my "student" not longer looked like a > maniac dentist from Sat. night live. .. I changed > dental students after that..G Yikes! I hate going to the dentist, and something like that happening to me wouldn't improve things one little bit! :-). Yes, dentists can look a bit manic I think...especially when masked up and peering down at you with a glint in their eye and a hypo poised threateningly... If there are any dentists out there I'm only kidding.;-). I've never had a lucid dream while 'up and about' Bill, because all mine have happened when I've been in bed or on the couch. I think that one of yours must be quite unusual because of that. Have you had many of those? I'm sure you'll agree that this type of dream (the pre-lucid stage especially) seems so very real that if a person hadn't had such an experience before, and didn't end up realising they were dreaming, then it is conceivable that they could think it was 'really' real. Even moreso if there was a 'seamless' transition between awake/asleep/awake, the only difference being that the dream 'characters' were no longer there; as if they had suddenly disappeared or gone away. I wonder how many people have that kind of dream while sleep-walking too? I've never heard of that actually, but it wouldn't surprise me. Some people may even go through life convinced of the reality of something that didn't happen outside their own minds. BTW Bill, I must say that I deeply respect and admire anyone that can actually fall asleep naturally in a dentist's chair. My hero! LOL!! Kind thoughts, Glyn Reply | Forward


From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:57 pm Subject: RE: Dental Lucid dream docsavagebill Hi Glyn, Thank you very much...but I was terribly tired. And I did mantra meditation while relaxing with my eyes closed. . I never had a "waking" lucid dream like that again in my life..where I never noticed going to sleep and slipping into an inner world that so exactly matched the outer. It was such a joyful rush when I realized my state. I wanted to stay and play..but figured the dentist would think I had a stroke or something...G It was also interesting that the inside/out feeling when conciously waking up was what Terri identified with an OBE..

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