pjrv : Messages : 2238-2301 of 4038
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23:48:43
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#2238
From: "waterway_21 "
Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 12:21 pm
Subject: PSI Missing research waterway_21
Can anyone point me to some research on PSI missing. You know, the
effect you get of significantly WRONG hits by people convinced PSI
doesn't exist.
I would expect this type of information to be limited since most
researchers want to find significanlty correct sessions, and getting
unbelievers to volunteer for testing would also be a pain. But I get
the feeling that, if this phenomenon exists, it tells us a lot about
how the process works.
I'm new to the forum, so I was looking back in the archives and came
across a number of instances of unexpected patterns that don't seem
to fit, and this Missing PSI phenomenon is one of them. I think
these aberations that don't make any sense.... actually are traits of
the real dynamics.... we just don't know how they all fit together...
well, I don't anyway.
Thanks for any information you can provide.
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#2243
From: "Glyn"
Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 4:50 am
Subject: RE: PSI Missing research gebega
Hi 'Waterway',
I think that can also happen with those that do think 'psi' exists. For
example, on one occasion I was trying some on-line card guessing experiments
and was doing so badly that I got really frustrated and figured that I may
do better if I deliberately tried to score low. I actually went through the
next run of 25 guesses and scored zero I couldn't manage it again though,
even though I tried, but on that particular occasion I was scoring
consistently below chance. I find those card guessing games very boring
though and do not like them; probably because I do not believe I am any good
at them......which of course could be because I'm not; but just believing
this could set up a cycle of failure.
I do think that belief is very important , because it can get entrenched
deep down. If someone consciously does not believe in psi, but deep down
does (and may even be afraid of it), then I can see how there would be a
subconscious desire to score low so as not to unnerve themselves; or even to
prove a point. If they have a good level of natural psi ability then this
could result in scoring way below chance.
I suspect that keeping low scoring consistent is just as difficult as the
other way round, which is why there's not a lot of it about. :-)
Regards,
Glyn
-----Original Message-----
From: waterway_21
[mailto:bbogle...ration.com]
Can anyone point me to some research on PSI missing. You know, the
effect you get of significantly WRONG hits by people convinced PSI
doesn't exist.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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#2256
From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 3:08 pm
Subject: Re: PSI Missing research maliolana
Aloha Glyn,
I suspect that keeping low scoring consistent is just as difficult as the
other way round, which is why there's not a lot of it about. :-){
Well as a fairly consistant below chancer......I have to say ...It was
extremely easy ...to maintain a well below average...When I try really
hard...
I am much closer to average...haha...
I think I am getting better...but the stats will tell
...huh?...haha...haven't RVed in over a month...I been slacking...but
...I am about to get on the horse...once again...
I find those card guessing games very boring
though and do not like them; probably because I do not believe I am any
good
at them......which of course could be because I'm not; but just believing
this could set up a cycle of failure.{
I also didn't think I would be that good at the cards...and both
proved...and disproved my theory in a couple of years time...less than
half the time...I did right well...but more than half the time...I went
low enough ...to lower the overall average...
I found the card games kinda boring as well...I got bad headaches the
first 6 mo or so...especially when I played the game for over an hour or
so...but after Dean added in the flashing colors...that gave a moving
spectrum for me to focus on...a new demention in a way...and that was
more challenging to my '?' whatever...and my score went up...
Intrigue/adventure... I believe ...may play a part...and the sequential
card game...was great for a while...I scored great for several
weeks...and then I guess got bored with it...or my biorythyms went
low...or what?...I think our response to the one dimension...is that what
it is?...of the pictures on the cards...may feel ...too limiting...
I am surprised ...at how frequently I do get the small signs... that
sometimes come up ...under the card in place of a picture...the one where
it just says 'correct'!...I think that is trippy...because I have not
been aware... in advance ...that it was just words...yet usually get it
correct...
Even when I ARV...many times ...I think I actually go to/access... the
actual site...the movement of the real thing...helps me draw my
ideograms...
Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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#2260
From: "waterway_21 "
Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:24 am
Subject: Re: PSI Missing research waterway_21
Glyn,
Thanks for your reply. Your insight is valuable. At one point you
stated:
"I do think that belief is very important , because it can get
entrenched deep down. If someone consciously does not believe in psi,
but deep down does (and may even be afraid of it), then I can see how
there would be a subconscious desire to score low so as not to
unnerve themselves; or even to prove a point. If they have a good
level of natural psi ability then this could result in scoring way
below chance."
Yes, I see that, but I cannot keep all this straight since its
sounding a lot like the old arguement in support of the validity of
Freudian psychodynamics. If the patient admits they have problems,
then its a breakthrough, if they don't admit they have an issue, then
they are obviously repressing it.... there is no way to disprove the
theory.....
Of course, it may still be TRUE.
It just seems that if their unconscious mind is clever enough go to
the trouble of hiding the feared reality of PSI, it should be able to
understand that being significantly WRONG is still significant. It
would doubtless be clever enough to be subtle and produce
insignificant results. UNLESS.... it really WANTS to be found
out.... and some unconscious mind it trying to expose itself.....
through significant MISSES. Hmm.....
Anyway... it still doesn't explain much since its so convoluted.
There certainly seems to be some correlation between belief and
significant results.... but what is the dynamic that produces that
correlation?
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#2267
From: "Glyn"
Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:57 pm
Subject: RE: Re: PSI Missing research gebega
Hi Waterway,
-----Original Message-----
From: waterway_21
[mailto:bbogle...ration.com]
It just seems that if their unconscious mind is clever enough go to
the trouble of hiding the feared reality of PSI, it should be able to
understand that being significantly WRONG is still significant. It
would doubtless be clever enough to be subtle and produce
insignificant results. UNLESS.... it really WANTS to be found
out.... and some unconscious mind it trying to expose itself.....
through significant MISSES. Hmm.....
I know, sometimes it almost seems that our sub has got it's own distinct
'personality'; and a very contrary one at that! :-).
I think the problem may be one of communication though, and maybe the sub
doesn't do any 'thinking' as such. There is obviously interaction between
the upper and lower levels of our mind on an ongoing basis, and information
seems to reach us from the sub in the form of 'packets' rather than words;
even though we may go on to convert those concepts into words in our
conscious minds. The trouble is, when we try to convey our intent to the
sub, as in RV, we tend to think 'at it' , and not only in concepts, but
words as well, all mixed up .and words may be redundant when dealing with
an area of mind/brain that perhaps cannot handle language and does not
(cannot) rationalise or reason. I think there are probably 'layers' to the
unconscious mind, starting with that which is very close to being conscious
(like where the unrealised/unacknowledged fear of psi we are talking about
may occur), and so on down to the very deep; where lies the interface
between our 'world' and...wherever we get the data. Communication must be a
bit like playing a game of 'Chinese Whispers'..no wonder 'psi' isn't easy
:-).
Regards,
Glyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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#2276
From: Benton Bogle
Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:43 am
Subject: RE: Re: PSI Missing research waterway_21
Hi Glyn,
You stated:
I know, sometimes it almost seems that our sub has got it's own distinct
'personality'; and a very contrary one at that! :-).
Thanks for your response. I have been reading back through the archives PJ
has put together, and in one post Lyn B., IIRC, comments that the
subconscious does seem to have a personality of its own, and must be
"encouraged" to participate in the RV process. It seems that affirmations
and focusing and other preparations help with this, but can you discuss
other things that help strengthen the activity of the subconscious to
provide information?
Perhaps instead of communicating in "words" or interpretations, the sub
instead is attuned to "meaning" or importance of things. I get the feeling
that the conscious mind, mediated by the personal ego, seems to communicate
regarding the relationship of a thing, ie a chair is "something" because it
was a gift, its my place in the living room, it shows my taste, etc. Things
exist because they are defined by their relationship to other things.
That's why AOL creeps in, when the trait we RV is suddenly joined to a bunch
of other things because our conscious mind does that to stuff, it knows
things by its relationships, so it wants to relate stuff....The conscious
mind has no use for independent, unrelated information, and its usual MO is
to just ignore it unless it can latch it into the schema it uses to define
its world.
It seems that the subconscious is more interested in how important something
is, or its value of "meaning" or intimate importance. So perhaps the reason
missing PSI can happen is because the subconscious isn't interested in
"proving" the conscious ego's contention that PSI does not exist, and is
actually trying to shout "I do exits".
I sure would like to hear what you and others have to say about these
musings.
-Benton
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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#2283
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:10 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Eye Movement Integrating left and right hemispheres for PTSD..and maybe RV? docsavagebill
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=367221
This link details a new method for trating
post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) : Eye Movement
Desensitisation and Reprocessing (EMDR). It is
believed by some to be one of the most effective
treatments for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
It supposedly integrates the right and left hemisphere
so that deeprooted right hemisphere traumas can be
relieved. However I wondered if it also might work for
RV getting that hard to reach right hemisphere signal
over to the left for output??
Best Regards,
Bill
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#2288
From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m
Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:38 am
Subject: Re: Re: Eye Movement Integrating left and right hemispheres for PTSD..and maybe RV? maliolana
Aloha guys,
A friend sent me these...Time spheres is intriging and color test a
definately a brain teaser...left and right
An Article: Time Spheres
http://starbuilders.org/newstuff/articles/1time/
("What we see through them is what we think is real.")
The Right/Left Brain dilemma: The Color Test
http://www.humorsphere.com/fun/colortest.swf
(A "simple" color test)
Love & Light & Laughter
Mali'o...aka...Dawna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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#2294
From: Rocheleh
Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:38 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Eye Movement Integrating left and right hemispheres for PTSD..and maybe RV? rochelehhakt...
Bill Pendragon wrote:
> This link details a new method for trating
> post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) : Eye Movement
> Desensitisation and Reprocessing (EMDR). It is
> believed by some to be one of the most effective
> treatments for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
> It supposedly integrates the right and left hemisphere
> so that deeprooted right hemisphere traumas can be
> relieved. However I wondered if it also might work for
> RV getting that hard to reach right hemisphere signal
> over to the left for output??
I read a bit into PTSD last summer, and I got the impression EMDR's
effectiveness was debated, to say the least. If I have some time next
week, I'll go check some of the psych journal databases our university
subscribes to get the latest developments on this. I'm interested about
this myself.
After a quick netsearch, I've found that the Journal of Clinical
Psychology (Wiley's) had an EMDR special issue last December. Full text
is subscription-only, so it's still hoping my university is subscribed
to it. (IIRC, it is.)
Rachel
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#2301
From: "Eva "
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: PSI Missing research k9caninek9
Neg psi also may be a result of conflicting desires within the mind,
much the same as the occasional Freudian slip.
-E
>
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#2245
From: "intuitwolf "
Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 12:54 pm
Subject: Re: PSI Missing research intuitwolf
--- In pjrv...oups.com, "waterway_21
wrote:
> Can anyone point me to some research on PSI missing.
>
> I think
> these aberations that don't make any sense.... actually are traits of
> the real dynamics.... we just don't know how they all fit together...
> well, I don't anyway.
>
As I recall Dean Radin addresses the issue in Conscious Universe --
it' been a while since I read it and I gave my copy away so I can't
look it up. I also recall Jessica Utts addressing it in some of her
writings.
Orr's law: 'Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove'.
Shelia
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