pjrv : Messages : 3673-3673 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/3673?)
16:01:16
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#3673
From: "pjgaenir"
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 12:40 am
Subject: RV Rock and Roll! pjgaenir
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I started that last post depressed, and ended up inspired. That is
funny! Maybe most things are how you look at them.
In the bible, there is this place where God (allegedly the good guy
in that book...!) is going to wipe out this city and there is this
friend of God's trying to save it, going, "Lord, if there be TEN
people who are righteous?" and then, "If there be THREE?" and so on.
Sometimes when I am ready to chuck the entire online RV field as a
bunch of 90% inertic and 9% flaming ego, I think of that. I think,
are there 10 people worth it? Yes. There are. And there will be in
the future. And there are people reading Joe's books who work on it
and aren't even online, but someday might be and might deserve
support. There really IS, despite the entropia and politics of the
field, a core that is genuinely worth supporting, in the present, and
for the future.
There are people who three years from now may read these very words
in an archive and think, "I'm glad someone cared enough to do
something, and didn't let the bozos get in their way or get them
down." It's a bigger picture than any of us see, as I realize every
time I get email from firedocs from someone I never heard of, almost
tearfully grateful for finding what seems real, no-BS RV info.
I'm getting more upbeat now. I think maybe the RV is coming to a
decision point crux of sorts. Where the old energy of division and
secrecy and even outright avoidance of RV itself (talk is cheap!)
will meet head to head with the new energy of friendly integration
and open information and actual hands-on work and community. It will
be interesting from a sociological and metaphysical view, regardless
of the outcome.
I get a vote. I say, it IS time to rock and roll! It's past time.
PJ
pjrv : Messages : 3676-3748 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/3676?)
16:05:03
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#3676
From: "Elizabeth Hambrook"
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 12:57 am
Subject: Re: RV Rock and Roll! ozblueriver
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>>>>Maybe most things are how you look at them.
LOL,
PJ, RV *already* rocks!
cheers
Liz
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#3677
From: "Linda & John Garvey"
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 12:12 pm
Subject: RE: RV Rock and Roll! linda_g7us
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Hi PJ --
Well, I am one of those folks who was very excited a few years ago when I
found your archived Firedocs website, and spent hours and hours there, day
after day, so glad that it was there. So, IMHO, you are on the right track
in caring enough to do something, and "not letting the bozos get in your
way," as you put it. :)
BTW, that bible story does sound familiar, and I kind of remember wondering,
as a little kid, why would God need someone to point this out to Him --
wouldn't He figure it out all on His own...? And then there was the story
about how God slaughtered countless innocent children because He was fed up
with a certain political leader -- which story instantly put me off
believing unquestioningly anything written in ANY book. I was around four
years old or so, and I still feel that way today, at sixty. (Akkk, don't
get me started on this kind of stuff LOLOL ;).
Linda G
"The distinction between past, present and future
is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one."
-- Albert Einstein --
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#3682
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 6:21 pm
Subject: Re: RV Rock and Roll! docsavagebill
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Hi PJ,
I'm a little confused. What exactly are you adding to
10Kroads?
Best Wishes,
Bill
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#3683
From: "pjgaenir"
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: RV Rock and Roll! pjgaenir
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> I'm a little confused. What exactly are you adding to
> 10Kroads?
Hi Bill,
I posted here on it but it was long and some time ago.
Ten Thousand Roads (TKR) as a project has three primary "modules".
There is a "Message Board Complex" (MBC) which is already online.
There is a "Galleries" (G) area which is for tasking, viewing,
commenting, "displaying" what's done, etc. We might add chat, if
everybody else can twist my arm into it.
[Someday, that may expand to cover groups and projects, which for now
I have left out, for a variety of reasons.]
There is a "Resource Center" (RC) area which is for information
(links, archives, transcripts, multi-source FAQ, and more).
There is some mix of RC&G for things like the Viewer Home Pages and
Viewer Journals/blogs, as the pages/blogs are in the RC, but viewers
can link to Gallery sessions (theirs or others) from those.
There is some mix of MBC&G for things like Missions (specific
taskings, these are in one of the galleries) where there's a link
back from any session you look at on one of those taskings, to a
thread on the message boards dedicated to that tasking and the
sessions that resulted.
There will eventually be some mix of the MBC&RC as, as we build up
the Resource Center, stuff that is directly from/to anybody with a
message or announcements board on TKR, may get links made from the
MBC to the resource center. For example, Joe's stuff will be in the
multi-source FAQ project (the main start of the resource center), and
in the transcripts area, so he may end up with postings on his
announcements boards that lead people to the resource center and
those links or items, and the same goes for others with boards there.
The Galleries and Resource Center are separate, custom software; the
message board is a standard, if advanced, web bbs system. You can
read the MBC without registering (on average, we have about 250
registrants and about 1300 regular readers). But because the G/RC
has to track sessions, comments etc., one has to register for that
part, it's separate. That can be done anonymously, and it's free, so
it's no big.
I started it in code finally in late 2002. But I didn't get around
to getting serious--and buying back my domains I'd let lapse already--
until March of 2003, when I got a variety of great people to help as
staff. By July I realized we had to open or the staff was going to
be snoring on me, so even though I was not near done with the rest,
we went ahead and opened the message boards. That's good, as the
staff have been invaluable in helping guide a little of how things
should develop (and what I have screwed up and need to fix, LOL).
The Galleries will open this month. Date unclear.
The Galleries allows viewers to get practice or formal, assigned-
taskings (we call them Missions). Practice has two variants, one
(version2) hrvg-style (where the tasker knows the task number so a
cue-er can play a role) and one (version 1 or 'standard') is
crv/trv/srv/tds/erv/etc.-style (every task number is unique, so no
two viewers ever have the same# and no two targets ever have the same
number).
Version1 is double blind. Version2, we assume is, but the system
can't ensure that. There are several categories of targets, which
allow a viewer to keep extreme violence/death out of the probability
for their tasking, or which will allow people to focus, such as
on "people" for example, and have a practice pool just of that.
Mission taskings will vary on feedback. The viewer specs their
minimum FB requirement, and the system searches for taskings at that
minimum or higher to clone, generate a new number for, and assign.
So these targets can be nearly anything, depending on the tasker.
From normal stuff, to precog targets, to esoteria, anything can be in
there; the viewer controls things by their feedback level.
When a Mission tasking has multiple data/sessions (DS), the demo
gallery lists those for review. If a practice target ends up tasked
to more than one person, the demo gallery will group them so you can
see what diff people got on that same target. In the peanut gallery
you can vote on sessions, and make comments for the viewer.
For Data/Sessions, viewers can just type in their basic data, or
upload a PDF of their session, or upload multiple images like scanned
pages.
We assume most D/S will be anonymous. Unless someone is trying to
prove something to the world, I don't see any reason to use regular
names anyway. This is all about viewer development. Everyone just is
where they are, at whatever level, and it's about the doing and the
growing, not the bragging. So, the Galleries can be used by anybody
to prove themselves IF they like, but the "default" is anonymity.
We assume that with the politics in this field, nobody wants to get
attacked or scorned for not being Adequately Omniscient, LOL! And
some people may feel inhibited if their trainer or friends don't want
them to share, so this way, everyone can, without risk.
On the viewer home pages, a viewer can link to their sessions. So if
you do everything anonymously, but have a really good one, you can
still link to it. People will then know that one is yours, but no
others unless you volunteer it. This issue of psychology and ego is
very important in my view so it's designed around that.
There is also a Window Gallery. Sessions done for practice groups,
or outside TKR, or 'old favorite' sessions, can be uploaded through
that. We are hoping this will make it easier for small practice
groups to spring up, or operate more fluently (esp. with Yahoo
killing attachments on web), as anybody can do a session upload and
then just link to it in an email.
The Galleries are mostly done and in security-review and final-beta.
The Resource Center is starting construction now, the viewer home
page option is done, next is the multi-source FAQ.
Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you go, asking a
programmer about their project is like asking someone about their
kids. "Wait! Wait! Lemme show you pictures!" LOL!
PJ
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#3684
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 9:04 pm
Subject: Re: Re: RV Rock and Roll! docsavagebill
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Hi PJ,
Very impressive. Could I suggest a separate taskings
for people that want to work practice sessions vs say
people that want a crack at operational sessions (
where is Bin Laden? etc), or exotic sessions..(where
is the Holy Grail). It might be fun to take a peek at
one of those once in awhile.
Best Regarsd,
Bill
--------------------------
Beat ya to it. The TKR Practice Gallery handles practice RV (two task formats, 7
task categories). The Missions Gallery handles 'other' RV (7 diff feedback
levels selectable--as it may be any kind of target). The Window Gallery handles
non-TKR stuff (displays publicly so viewers can link from their own websites, or
ref the session to a practice group). We might add a Dowsing Gallery later if
people show interest. The Demo Gallery displays all the work. The Peanut
Gallery is where you can vote or make comments on sessions (IF the viewer
settings for that session allows it to show up there).
So the task types are pretty split up already. Practice is cool but the
Missions will be more fun. ;-) Since TKR is field-wide, there are a variety of
taskers. Aside from some standard parameters we have to set, the type of task
will depend on the tasker--as the field itself has a variety of interests, os
will the taskers. (That's why the feedback level is selectable by viewer. God
forbid a CRV stalwart should get an SRV special interest task LOL.)
PJ
--- pjgaenir wrote:
> > I'm a little confused. What exactly are you adding
> to
> > 10Kroads?
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I posted here on it but it was long and some time
> ago.
>
> Ten Thousand Roads (TKR) as a project has three
> primary "modules".
>
> There is a "Message Board Complex" (MBC) which is
> already online.
>
> There is a "Galleries" (G) area which is for
> tasking, viewing,
> commenting, "displaying" what's done, etc. We might
> add chat, if
> everybody else can twist my arm into it.
>
> [Someday, that may expand to cover groups and
> projects, which for now
> I have left out, for a variety of reasons.]
>
> There is a "Resource Center" (RC) area which is for
> information
> (links, archives, transcripts, multi-source FAQ, and
> more).
>
> There is some mix of RC&G for things like the Viewer
> Home Pages and
> Viewer Journals/blogs, as the pages/blogs are in the
> RC, but viewers
> can link to Gallery sessions (theirs or others) from
> those.
>
> There is some mix of MBC&G for things like Missions
> (specific
> taskings, these are in one of the galleries) where
> there's a link
> back from any session you look at on one of those
> taskings, to a
> thread on the message boards dedicated to that
> tasking and the
> sessions that resulted.
>
> There will eventually be some mix of the MBC&RC as,
> as we build up
> the Resource Center, stuff that is directly from/to
> anybody with a
> message or announcements board on TKR, may get links
> made from the
> MBC to the resource center. For example, Joe's
> stuff will be in the
> multi-source FAQ project (the main start of the
> resource center), and
> in the transcripts area, so he may end up with
> postings on his
> announcements boards that lead people to the
> resource center and
> those links or items, and the same goes for others
> with boards there.
>
> The Galleries and Resource Center are separate,
> custom software; the
> message board is a standard, if advanced, web bbs
> system. You can
> read the MBC without registering (on average, we
> have about 250
> registrants and about 1300 regular readers). But
> because the G/RC
> has to track sessions, comments etc., one has to
> register for that
> part, it's separate. That can be done anonymously,
> and it's free, so
> it's no big.
>
> I started it in code finally in late 2002. But I
> didn't get around
> to getting serious--and buying back my domains I'd
> let lapse already--
> until March of 2003, when I got a variety of great
> people to help as
> staff. By July I realized we had to open or the
> staff was going to
> be snoring on me, so even though I was not near done
> with the rest,
> we went ahead and opened the message boards. That's
> good, as the
> staff have been invaluable in helping guide a little
> of how things
> should develop (and what I have screwed up and need
> to fix, LOL).
>
> The Galleries will open this month. Date unclear.
>
> The Galleries allows viewers to get practice or
> formal, assigned-
> taskings (we call them Missions). Practice has two
> variants, one
> (version2) hrvg-style (where the tasker knows the
> task number so a
> cue-er can play a role) and one (version 1 or
> 'standard') is
> crv/trv/srv/tds/erv/etc.-style (every task number is
> unique, so no
> two viewers ever have the same# and no two targets
> ever have the same
> number).
>
> Version1 is double blind. Version2, we assume is,
> but the system
> can't ensure that. There are several categories of
> targets, which
> allow a viewer to keep extreme violence/death out of
> the probability
> for their tasking, or which will allow people to
> focus, such as
> on "people" for example, and have a practice pool
> just of that.
>
> Mission taskings will vary on feedback. The viewer
> specs their
> minimum FB requirement, and the system searches for
> taskings at that
> minimum or higher to clone, generate a new number
> for, and assign.
> So these targets can be nearly anything, depending
> on the tasker.
> From normal stuff, to precog targets, to esoteria,
> anything can be in
> there; the viewer controls things by their feedback
> level.
>
> When a Mission tasking has multiple data/sessions
> (DS), the demo
> gallery lists those for review. If a practice target
> ends up tasked
> to more than one person, the demo gallery will group
> them so you can
> see what diff people got on that same target. In
> the peanut gallery
> you can vote on sessions, and make comments for the
> viewer.
>
> For Data/Sessions, viewers can just type in their
> basic data, or
> upload a PDF of their session, or upload multiple
> images like scanned
> pages.
>
> We assume most D/S will be anonymous. Unless someone
> is trying to
> prove something to the world, I don't see any reason
> to use regular
> names anyway. This is all about viewer development.
> Everyone just is
> where they are, at whatever level, and it's about
> the doing and the
> growing, not the bragging. So, the Galleries can be
> used by anybody
> to prove themselves IF they like, but the "default"
> is anonymity.
>
> We assume that with the politics in this field,
> nobody wants to get
> attacked or scorned for not being Adequately
> Omniscient, LOL! And
> some people may feel inhibited if their trainer or
> friends don't want
> them to share, so this way, everyone can, without
> risk.
>
> On the viewer home pages, a viewer can link to their
> sessions. So if
> you do everything anonymously, but have a really
> good one, you can
> still link to it. People will then know that one is
> yours, but no
> others unless you volunteer it. This issue of
> psychology and ego is
> very important in my view so it's designed around
> that.
>
> There is also a Window Gallery. Sessions done for
> practice groups,
> or outside TKR, or 'old favorite' sessions, can be
> uploaded through
> that. We are hoping this will make it easier for
> small practice
> groups to spring up, or operate more fluently (esp.
> with Yahoo
> killing attachments on web), as anybody can do a
> session upload and
> then just link to it in an email.
>
> The Galleries are mostly done and in security-review
> and final-beta.
> The Resource Center is starting construction now,
> the viewer home
> page option is done, next is the multi-source FAQ.
>
> Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you
> go, asking a
> programmer about their project is like asking
> someone about their
> kids. "Wait! Wait! Lemme show you pictures!" LOL!
>
> PJ
>
>
>
>
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#3685
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 10:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dimensionals??? docsavagebill
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Hello All,
Anyone want to give hints on dimensionals. Say you
have a metal hut shape..but it turns out to be a bread
box or vice verse. How do most people work with
dimensionals? And what stage?
Bill
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#3686
From: "Bill and Sandy Ray"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:37 am
Subject: RE: Re: Dimensionals??? firedust2
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Hi Bill and All
> Anyone want to give hints on dimensionals. Say you
> have a metal hut shape..but it turns out to be a bread
> box or vice verse. How do most people work with
> dimensionals? And what stage?
Dimensionals come in at the end of Stage 2. They are the transition from
stage 2 to stage 3. After the other sensory perceptions of stage 2 come
through the dimensionals follow. In Ingo theory they are what stretches the
aperture increasing site contact. Because the aperture opens wider more of
the site rushes in resulting in Atheistic Impact (AI). After declaring
AI the viewer can move on to stage 3. In the stage 4 matrix there is also a
separate column for Dimensionals. It has been my experience that Stage 2
dimensionals are general to the site, while in stage 4 the dimensionals tend
to be more specific to a certain Tangible. To be honest I am not sure if
that is Bill Ray or Ingo Swann talking.
As for the bread box and the hut. Stage 1 will tell you that the site is a
man made structure. Stage 2 might give you things like; musty smell, or
toast smell, peanut butter taste, dusty taste,. I am not sure colors,
sounds, feeling, will help in this case. Dimensions might be: small, tiny,
enclosed, AI Break I like it hear, I feel hungry (just kidding).
I think the thing to remember here is that there are sites that can be
resolved in Stage 1, 2 or 3. We use these sites to train those stages. But
a viewer is not truly operational until the viewer has mastered stage 4.
Slainte
Bill Ray
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#3690
From: "Monika Preston"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:20 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Dimensionals??? karimchris
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Hi all,
In my experience the dimensionals in stage 2 can contradict each other
(wide, open, narrow).
In stage 4 usually these dimensionals repeat themselves and get linked to
the tangibles of the site and therefore start to make sense.
Also, the intangibles of a site can have dimensions.
Example: motivation - high, danger - big
Good day all,
monika
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#3689
From: "Sharon Webb"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 11:04 am
Subject: Re: Re: Dimensionals??? sharwebb_30512
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Bill,
Interesting challenge. I think one way is to project a known sized object into
the visualization for scale---the way people do when they take a photo of
something with a dime or a yardstick in the picture. A known object could be a
human figure---maybe the RVr's own.
Sharon
sharwebb...net
www.fractalus.com/sharon
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#3694
From: "Monika Preston"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:13 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Dimensionals??? karimchris
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Hi Sharon,
I would assume that when viewing a site I view it from a human-size
perspective; interesting, I have never thought about that.
However, in CRV all visual impressions are supposed to be declared as AOL.
Therefore, dimensions are something I feel, sense, not see as a picture in
my mind.
Have a great day,
monika
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#3698
From: "pjgaenir"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: Dimensionals??? pjgaenir
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Hi Monika,
> in CRV all visual impressions are supposed
> to be declared as AOL.
> Therefore,
Maybe a diff in teachers here, I didn't really learn that polarized a
view of it. Whatever works for the viewer, though!
I use what I call "PJRV" now, which changes as often as I do, and is
continually experimental--but I'm having fun. ;-) I've tracked about
7 different ways I get visual data alone. Which is really amazing
when you start paying attention to that. Sometimes 'how' it comes
tells me something about my target contact and whether it is likely
to be literal or symbolic or what, so it's helpful info to notice.
I have noticed that the type of visuals likely to be most wrong are
the type likely to be most symbolic, and hence they are wrong. So I
don't tend to discard them, but rather, ask myself what my mind is
trying to tell me at that point.
I'm not saying I get an answer of course, lol! ;-)
PJ
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#3713
From: "smitty97006"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: Dimensionals??? smitty97006
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> I use what I call "PJRV" now, which changes
> as often as I do, and is
> continually experimental--but I'm having fun. ;-)
Hmmmm... PJRV, sorta just rolls right off the tongue doesn't it?
I would suggest immediately destroying this post admitting you've
made it up yourself. Dig up a couple famously dead people's names, a
non disclosure agreement, and fill in what really happened during
that mysterious 4 year absense you had ;-).. Viola!!! Guru Palyne...
Just don't forget who gave you the idea when you start looking for
that sycophant sidekick..
Gene
-------------------------
LOL! I dunno man. You almost disagreed with me once at TKR. You're on my
radar for life as a potentially subversive element. I think enough for both of
us, so why do YOU need an opinion? You should have thought of that before
posting yours. I would have banned you except being on wizop council, I'd have
had to get your vote first, which really complicates things damn it.
But as they say, sometimes the worst people give the best advice--you're right.
(lol) I am a fan of Sybil Leek, isn't she dead? I'm a huge fan of Jane Roberts,
and she is definitely dead. Oooh, a medium AND a channel--now I could wrap
something into RV it hasn't had yet. For all those wondering, "Could RV's image
possibly get any worse?!" the answer is YES. LOL.
I'll consider you for the SK job. Having previously been one of those sidekicks
myself I have a fairly good idea what the job entails. It seems to me the role
has gotten a lot more demanding since my days in it though. I merely had to be
in agreement with my guru--the actual, physical sharing of a brain wasn't
necessary as I recall. But since you and I both have about half of one to begin
with, I think that would work out pretty well for both lol.
PJ
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#3701
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:59 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Dimensionals??? docsavagebill
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Does everyone agree with this? I don't see this in the
manual. It's not my experience either. Most visuals
have imaginary aspects or are approximations. But to
say one should not be working at all with
visuals..leaves me rather confused and skeptical.
Best Regards
Bill
> However, in CRV all visual impressions are supposed
> to be declared as AOL.
> Therefore, dimensions are something I feel, sense,
> not see as a picture in
> my mind.
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#3706
From: "Glyn"
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:57 am
Subject: RE: Re: Dimensionals??? glynis5799
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Hi Bill,
I can only go by my own experience, and I but I am not a very visual person in
everyday life, I am more of a touchy/feely person ;-). I try and try, and
although I have had visual impressions that have turned out to have congruence,
they tend to be vague skeletal impressions (know what I mean?), rather than the
wonderful clear visuals I would prefer. My really good, clear visuals are nearly
always AOL; unfortunately.
My husband has a wonderful visual memory, although not as good now as in his
youth. Once he could visualise a 'board' in his mind, and juggle mathematical
equations, ..hold the image and go back and fill in the blanks! Honestly, I
didn't believe it at first, but he tells me that he was surprised when he
realised that everyone didn't do that. However he can't understand it when I say
I can mentally feel things and 'hold' things in my hand. It's just the way our
minds differ, and the type of memory we have. I just can't hold an image for
long, and I definitely need a calculator :-). I think that that the way we
process information in daily life may carry over to our way of doing things
during RV.
Regards,
Glyn
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#3712
From: "terri8008"
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 8:58 am
Subject: Re: Dimensionals??? terri8008
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> "However, in CRV all visual impressions are
> supposed to be declared as AOL.
> Therefore, dimensions are something I feel,
> sense, not see as a picture in my mind."
My opinion based upon my personal experience-
I would totally agree with Monika.
I work (my) ERV, and all AOL are set aside.
I avoid visual like the plague.
In ERV to follow the willy-nilly trail that an AOL can lead me on is
an exercise in exasperation, it's my 'mind' telling me what
it 'thinks' is there, and rarely what "is"..
I do get the occasional, what I term, a "flash image", (not an AOL
exactly, but I set it aside as an AOL) but this 'flash' appears
differently for myself. It comes as a grainy fleeting image tinged in
yellow ochre.. so far in my ERV these flashes have been the target
site, although not in full detail, rather shadowed and fuzzy.
My experiences in RV are by majority sensual, as in I sense and feel
my way about the site and the occasional 'known' as opposed
to 'seeing'... (but 'knowns' are sometimes hard to pull out, or put
into words, oft times easier to briefly sketch).
It seems the longer I work RV the AOL tends to disappear.. a better
word may be recede. I expect this can be long term discipline or
structure one inflicts upon ones self-
all the best, Terri.
"I didn't say it would be easy. I just said it would be the truth."
- Morpheus
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#3715
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 4:18 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dimensionals??? docsavagebill
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Hmmm,
Are you saying even in stage 3 and 4 you get no
visuals. What does your summary look like?
Best Regarsd,
Bill
> --- terri8008 wrote:
> I work (my) ERV, and all AOL are set aside.
> I avoid visual like the plague. [snip]
> I do get the occasional, what I term, a "flash
> image", (not an AOL
> exactly, but I set it aside as an AOL) but this
> 'flash' appears
> differently for myself. It comes as a grainy
> fleeting image tinged in
> yellow ochre.. so far in my ERV these flashes have
> been the target
> site, although not in full detail, rather shadowed
> and fuzzy.
> My experiences in RV are by majority sensual, as in
> I sense and feel
> my way about the site and the occasional 'known' as
> opposed
> to 'seeing'... (but 'knowns' are sometimes hard to
> pull out, or put
> into words, oft times easier to briefly sketch).
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#3716
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Are Dean Radins results with RNG's the result of mass retrotasking? docsavagebill
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I think everyone here has heard the amazing results of
Dean Radin and coworkers using Random Number
generators, where the RNG's lose randomenss during
events which grab global conciousness. Well couldn't
this be a case of Retro Tasking?
In this case you are retrotasking the conciousness of
the whole human race to imprint the RNG's with
randomness at a certain time??
Similiarly a group just on Art Bell ( see url)
{www.urbansurvival.com}claim something similiar by
scanning the web for subtle changes in mass useage of
words (emotional words) about target topics.
The group analyzed billions of random words on the net
looking for emotional words that were associated with
for instance MICROSOFT or GOLD. They claim such words
predicted the movement of the prices. Furthermore that
they then found by careful examination they could
predict other future events
They claimed
they predicted the big power outage in the NE. An
interesting idea. I have no idea if it really works,
but it reminds me of the Princeton Random number
generator experiments, And again of RETRO TASKING. I
think one could write the ultimate conspiracy story
using concepts of mass retrotsaking of humanity..G
Bill
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#3720
From: "pjgaenir"
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: Are RNG's mass retrotasking? pjgaenir
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Hi Bill,
> I think everyone here has heard the amazing results of
> Dean Radin and coworkers using Random Number
> generators, where the RNG's lose randomenss during
> events which grab global conciousness.
I haven't heard those amazing results. Or rather, I have heard some
think they are amazing, but it seems that's gotten some critique even
within the parapsychology field itself. My impression with RNG has
been that it's been a pretty disappointing inquiry if the 'hope' was
to really find and demo something with it. I haven't read every
paper possible on it at this point though so I might be missing
something. Scott Ellis might know, I'm sure he is more up on this
science stuff than I am.
> In this case you are retrotasking the conciousness of
> the whole human race to imprint the RNG's with
> randomness at a certain time??
I strongly suspect that DAT is a far more likely model for explaining
this stuff than retrotasking would be. But of course we're both
theorizing; who knows?! It's an interesting idea.
> I have no idea if it really works,
It is possible that some of the occult studies are, on a more literal
level, sort of being replicated as novel ideas--that being that "in
all things there is correspondence," in a nutshell. So in a myriad
of ways, people are working to find the correspondences. I expect
the reason for their patterns is at a level more fundamental than any
of the inquiries (analysis of web searches, reverse speech, retro
tasking, bible code, etc.) expect, and that this will affect the
degree of predictability/effect-size of their study.
> think one could write the ultimate conspiracy story
> using concepts of mass retrotsaking of humanity..G
Yeah but I for one would not for a moment believe that any other
person, or group of persons, could psychically will the whole of my
reality. I just don't feel that vulnerable and powerless.
When I think about people retrotasking my sessions, well, I theorized
seriously for awhile about this, and finally came to a decision--and
this may change with further data or experience--but that I don't
consider it an issue for me, because I choose not to have it be an
issue for me, in the same way that I choose not to have psi info that
is not desired (e.g., so called 'telepathic overlay') be an issue for
me. "You can't touch 'dis!" is how I feel--if their own DAT leads
someone to find 'correspondences' between a session of mine and a
target they choose, that is their issue, not mine. I don't consider
that they affected me or the data; I consider that they psychically
were led to my session for that target the way people opening a book
are led to an answer to any question.
I feel capable of psychically holding the line, the intent. I think
this applies not just to sessions but to reality as a whole. I think
the answer to "the infringement of intent upon a session" -- or
reality -- is all within the self, is the development of will, of
intent. What I need is a psychic punching bag and rondori sessions
and I'd be all set, LOL.
PJ
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#3723
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 10:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Are RNG's mass retrotasking? docsavagebill
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Geez PJ,
Everytime Retrotasking is mentioned..people start
getting defensive. Can't we approach it as a
scientific question rather than a threat to our
RV-ego..G
Best wishes,
Bill
> I feel capable of psychically holding the line, the
> intent. I think
------------------
A funny thing to say about me, given I'm one of the few people that has very
publicly discussed this topic, at length, and defended its right to discussion
instead of fear or insult. I think what you are interpreting as a form of
'fear' on my part is something entirely different. I believe that remote
viewing is profoundly centered on strength of intent. (I believe reality--as
you were discussing it--is too.) So, if I think I have the strength of intent
to make an issue like retrotasking moot, and/or that the RT effects are likely
DAT, that is not a fear, it's just my personal perspective on it (we all have
one). I also think strength of intent (as I mentioned) can make a difference in
a viewer's ability to focus on relevant vs. trivial data, and target vs.
so-called 'overlay' info. My saying that doesn't indicate a fear of trivial
data or overlay, or discussin them, does it? :-) PJ
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#3746
From: "Scott"
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:24 pm
Subject: Re: Are RNG's mass retrotasking? scottrver
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Got your note PJ, I've been busy lately.
> Bill wrote:
> > I think everyone here has heard the amazing results of
> > Dean Radin and coworkers using Random Number
> > generators, where the RNG's lose randomenss during
> > events which grab global conciousness.
There's a very persuasive alternative analysis by Ed May and James
Spottiswoode. They reached the conclusion that there is no such
correlation. You can read it at James' site www.jsasoc.com.
For the RNG type micro-PK trials in general, DAT seems to be a better
explanation than PK.
DAT is worth understanding and there are some papers on DAT at James'
site which are worth reading. Other than the reality of RV I think
DAT is arguably the single biggest contribution to the field to date.
Since we don't understand the mechanisms of psi, DAT remains just a
theory. But thus far an awful lot of experimental results make more
sense, including failures to replicate, when the experiments are
analyzed with DAT in mind.
Also most, if not all, parapsychology experiments I've read about have
not been designed to minimize DAT in order to isolate another psi
mechanism as an explanation - even those experiments conducted since
DAT was proposed. And of course DAT isn't even known about outside of
parapsychology.
Scott
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#3748
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 12:27 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Are RNG's mass retrotasking? docsavagebill
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Hi Scott,
Well Dean wrote a rebuttle to Spottiswoods criticism,
which also sounded quite reasonable. But in fact the
statistical arguments were over my head. So it remains
to me an open question, but the original data looked
very impressive. I would like to hear from Dean on
this.. PJ! Can you get an interview with Dean?..G
Best Regards,
Bill
-------------
I haven't asked. -- PJ
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#3724
From: "Glyn"
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 2:04 am
Subject: RE: Re: Are Dean Radins results with RNG's the result of mass retrotasking? glynis5799
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Hi Bill,
> I think one could write the ultimate conspiracy story
> using concepts of mass retrotsaking of humanity..G
I think you definitely could Bill. A good sci-fi plot for someone too :-).
Maybe this is how everything 'works' though, with random affects and conscious
intents and desires, influencing and bouncing off each other, forward and also
seemingly also backward, building and collapsing, and so everything rolls
along.. When we go down this line of thought it's mind-boggling, the
implication, isn't it? Really interesting stuff.
Glyn
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#3730
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 12:38 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Are Dean Radins results with RNG's the result of mass retrotasking? docsavagebill
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LOL..
If the evidence got too strong, it might wipe the
smile right off my face..G. But right now it's just a
fascinating possibility..that irritates people enough
to get it banned on some sites, making it even more
interesting..G
Bill
> When we go down this line of thought it's
> mind-boggling, the
> implication, isn't it? Really interesting stuff.
Reply | Forward
#3732
From: "Glyn"
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 3:54 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Are Dean Radins results with RNG's the result of mass retrotasking? glynis5799
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Hi Bill,
Sometimes it seems as if we are missing something that is so damned obvious it's
almost grabbing us by the throat and shaking. :-). Bits and pieces of the
puzzle called 'Life, the universe and everything' all over the place and we just
can't make the connection. Maybe one day. Anyway what was that solution in the
end? Forty-two?? LOL!
Well one thing about this group...we can talk about anything without getting
banned. Well almost anything, eh PJ. ;-).
Glyn
---------------------------
Being overly nice to me is off-limits per recent posts. I already have an ego
the size of Jupiter, it needs no help. Other than that, I think all topics are
open here... if they relate to RV or 'experiential' psi/etc. ;-) PJ
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#3718
From: "Monika Preston"
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Dimensionals??? karimchris
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Hi Terri,
I am just working the opposite way :-)
In my ERV experience, visuals occur very frequently; mostly faint and
grainy, like very old black and white photos.
The bright sharp images I receive usually have little to do with the target
(that's what I find out during training sessions).
As much as I enjoy ERV, without a monitor I have extreme difficulties to
stay focused on a target.
With the CRV method I know the routine, work through the stages as I was
taught. Not experimenting with it because the way I do it works just fine
for me LOL. And you're so right about "knowing". For examples: colors are
just something I KNOW, I can't smell or taste them, nor do I see them.
I still don't know how you can ERV and remember all you viewed to write down
and sketch later. In ERV I am usually so far away (down/up/wherever) that
after it I can barely remember my name after a session.
Furthermore, how do you consciously declare AOLs in ERV? Do you declare AOLs
after a session? Like sorting out pees and pebbles?
monika
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#3727
From: "terri8008"
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 8:45 am
Subject: Re: Dimensionals??? terri8008
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Hiya Monika-
> (you wrote-I still don't know how you can ERV and remember all you
> viewed to write down and sketch later. )
. . .I've forgotten so much Monika, much of my ERV has become
ingrained and/or habitual and I don't think about what I do any
longer, I just do it.
Yeah, It's very hard to work solo ERV, and yes I can lose a whole
bunch of information if I allow myself to go too deep in session.
I guess thru the years I have developed disciplined guidelines, a
structure, that I put there during session and I also depend on,
trust in, the tasking and coordinates to keep me on the straight and
narrow, keep me on location or assignment.
To write up the session, I have become comfortable with the computer
key board and just sit and type often with my eyes closed(half
asleep) and let all the words, descriptive, poor out of me before
they fade or confuse.
Then I break for a bit, and might come back and put the words in some
form of structured report. Often introducing a structure, CRV style
stages, and or probing can pull more data from session.
When I can't use the keyboard and have to hand write a session it's
all over the place on big pieces of paper and the spelling is almost
incomprehensible.
I purposely "blind" myself during session. I just won't allow any
visual to come before me or appear in minds eye. If a visual comes in-
to play I bury it quickly, shift away from it, it's an indicator for
myself (wakes me up) that I am slipping out of session, off target, I
am beginning to 'think' (left brain) it.
I wait for the AI, then I know I have a fairly good foot in the
door. (targeted site)
from there on I allow the vague 'impressions' to surface or come in,
or I 'fall' into it..
Yes, it's a delicate balance to maintain solo but I'v found if I
don't focus directly on or in the altered state I don't lose my
balance. Like walking a tight rope, don't intentionally shift focus
to either side but keep attention blandly straight ahead.
I sometimes have a difficult time moving about the site all by
myself, no monitor, and I have a terrible time with doorknobbing.. I
seem to be a very tiny speck when viewing and can stick like glue to
the tinniest element or aspect of target site.
I irritate and frustrate the heck out of myself with these hang-ups.
I prefer to work a few sessions on a target (one a day), as opposed
to just one or a quick one (I can never figure how folks work a
session in a few minutes, it can take me 1-3 hours the whole process
from start to finish) .. the more I visit or 'work' a site the more I
know about it, then perhaps that's just ERV, the "extended" part :)
> (Furthermore, how do you consciously declare AOLs in ERV?)
. . . I'm quite all too conscious when an AOL occurs, it grabs my
attention usually in vibrant full color, 3-d in nature.
> (Do you declare AOLs after a session?)
. . .yep.
But, no.. I've never gone for visual in ERV.
Visual just does not work for me and I do envy the gifted folks who
can get accurate visual perceptions.
all the best, Terri.
~O Lord help my words to be gracious and tender today, for tomorrow I
may have to eat them~
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#3696
From: "pjgaenir"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:53 pm
Subject: Re: Dimensionals??? pjgaenir
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> I think one way is to project a known
> sized object into the visualization for
> scale---the way people do when they take
> a photo of something with a dime or a
> yardstick in the picture. A known object
> could be a human figure---maybe the RVr's own.
A good idea, Sharon. I think on some level, this is often done
accidentally in a session, at least in mine, by feeling sorta 'there'
in some sense, e.g, "this thing above, and this thing down to the
left"--there is often a sense that my body is involved in some
abstract way, and that alone does (later in session, not usually up
front) sometimes give a clue to dimension.
Somewhere in the archives I have a post about a technique I used to
use--I forgot about it till now--a sort of Pepto-Bismol effect lol.
Either it makes everything better, or it makes everything so much
worse so fast that it's all over... and then it'll be better,
just 'cause it's over, LOL.
The technique--which requires some target contact first--is basically
coming up with 3-5 really specific size/shape "archetypals" to
compare to (this mostly works if you think the target is some kind of
structure or gestalt). So for example, "The Epcot ball. [giant
sphere] Feel it next to the target. Does the target match it?" "No
way! The target's much smaller, and has straight vertical sides."
Going through the short list of 'archetypals' to 'compare' and see
how your target differs can provide extra info and move one past a
totally stuck point. The problem is, this is bigtime AOL-Drive
territory... I mean this is the guy with candy for the kids, and
you're the kid lol, it's so dangerous. This may save a lost session
before ending and move you forward, but it will *annihilate* your
session if your target contact isn't sufficient, by putting all kinds
of ideas and data into your head that don't belong there, and at that
point, you're so much better off if you just give up and throw down
the pen. :-)
Do the Silva techniques have an approach for dimensionals?
Oh. I should add one last note about dimensions. On targets that
have two different main areas -- for example, something way up high
sort of 'separates' the target into that focus up there, and
whatever's down on the ground -- sometimes a clue to that size and
separation is found in the 'awareness'. If you focus on one thing,
and the other literally recedes from awareness entirely, and then you
focus on the other thing and the first seems to just 'vanish' from
awareness, that's sometimes a clue for me that the things I'm
focusing on are not physically close/related enough to each other to
stay in my mind as any kind of unit or 'physical relationship'.
PJ
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#3699
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:09 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dimensionals??? docsavagebill
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Hi PJ and All,
Thanks for these suggestions. I'm axious to try them.
Best Regards,
Bill
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#3697
From: Bill Pendragon
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:55 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dimensionals??? docsavagebill
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Hi Sharon ,
Interesting idea. What stage would you project this
relative size image into the work?.. Right at the
beginning with the ideogram..or later in stage II or
stage III or even 4? Reading what Bill Ray said, it
might be better to wait until at least late stage2
todo that. But maybe I'll try different stages and see
which works best.
Best wishes,
Bill
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#3693
From: "pjgaenir"
Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:36 pm
Subject: Re: Dimensionals??? pjgaenir
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> Anyone want to give hints on dimensionals. Say you
> have a metal hut shape..but it turns out to be a bread
> box or vice verse. How do most people work with
> dimensionals? And what stage?
I'm not using CRV, though I sometimes use pieces of it, so I can't
speak to stage, only to my own current experience.
Some dimensionals come through as part of my first data (and I have a
diff idea of what constitutes 'gestalt', so I don't use it in
conversation with people familiar with methods, to avoid confusion),
for example, BIG, or DOWN....LONG or THREE THINGS, THIS, THIS BIGGER,
THIS BIGGEST. As time goes on I tend to get more of that right out of
the box in a session. Not usually much of this though unless it is
the *major/primary feature* of the target--which is where this ties
into the 'gestalt' concept.
Otherwise, usually they don't kick in for me until I'm in or past
what would be stage3 in CRV (sketching)--usually the first 'sketch
pieces' are disconnected, no clue as to size, but then I start
getting more sense of physical context. The physical context is
usually what clues in the general dimensions of something, for
example, I may feel there is an 'overhead' shape like a custom
roofing of some kind, and then down here at the left there is 'a
thing' which feels like it's at/on the ground, and usually that info
and more not stated (what I call 'background knowns') make it more
clear that the size is probably bigger than a gallon of milk and
smaller than a car -- that is still unspecific, and no I don't think
of it like that in session lol! -- but it at least deals with the
issue I think one of our RV Oasis Haiku winners addressed, something
like, "Only in Remote Viewing / Can redwood trees and toothpicks / Be
the same damn thing." LOL. (Who wrote that? hold on... ok. Prudence
Calabrese did.)
When I first hit sketch, I can draw a tornado the same size as the
guy and the destroyed airplane next to him (that the tornado took
out)--it's completely lost for scale. But after that, when
concept/context is coming in more, the "relationship between shapes"
in the target is a lot of what adds to the sense of "what
size/dimension" something is.
PJ
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